Tier = land taxes?

Compared to what I've had happen (let alone what I've SEEN happen) on estate land, well, I'll take Linden Labs.

How would you like to have your land, which you bought on a sim edge, moved three times in as many weeks (twice forcing you to redo the terraforming) until it was next to the laggiest sim on the grid. Then the landowner asks you to move to a different part of the sim, you do that, and they change the ground textures out from under you. Then your neighbor gets into a spite fest about how you took the parcel they had been promised (when you'd been forced to move). Then the sim moves again, and then it gets sold to a "financial services company" and everything gets returned. Sorry, you're out, most of another month's rent gone.

And that's better than when your sim just vanishes along with everything you had on it, no recourse, not just the land but all your no-copy objects gone. Poof. Oh, sorry, I can't do a rollback and return it, you're told, I don't own any sims any more. Ask the new owner. Who never replies. That one hasn't happened to me...

I used to be all gung-ho about private sims, but these days, well, be careful.

Qie Niangao,


Time for a reality check of sorts.

There are "charity" tip jars in almost every store and brothel in SL and that's OK. But if a not for profit org. offers someone access to the website they are paying Linden to use it's fraud?

You can call it renting if you like, but SL is only a very large interactive web page/chat room at its core.

I happen to run a non-profit website, and can legally offer webspace to whomever I choose. The company that runs the server has no say in what goes on that webpage. Unless, of course, I'm doing something illegal, which I've already seen in SL. I'm referring to the hackers you call griefers. Which is worse? Someone charging me for make-believe rental space, with my consent, or someone who is stealing L$s, which does equate to real world funds?

And, just to set the record straight, I check each charity out on the web first to make sure it has not for profit standing before donating anything in SL.

It may be, if they're getting a special deal on the servers from Linden Labs and their contract with Linden Labs prohibits resale. I do know that LL does provide some nonprofits with special deals, but I don't know the terms or the contract. If Qie does know those terms, perhaps he can elaborate on them.

/me points to apples!
/me points to oranges!

Apples!

When online in SL, go to the View menu > property lines. That will show you the boundaries of each parcel of land (single lines), and map regions (double lines).

You can do what you want inside the limits of a parcel. Outside that, it belongs to someone else, either another player, or "Governor Linden", the name used for holding land thats controlled by Linden Labs itself.

Parcels marked "Protected Land" and controlled by Governor Linden are generally roads, parks, and other such areas that you cannot mess with.

By the way, all official employees of Linden Labs have avatars with the last name "Linden".

oranges:

Photoshop! Shadows don't match!

LMAO

Hi Hearttau,

I'm one of those evil land barony types that rents land to other people via an estate... my honest gentle advice would be *not* to rent from an estate yet and get a small patch of mainland somewhere to start. And stay on mainland for a long time.

Here's why.

1) You don't have a feel for things yet. It's not just the land you get, it's who is around you that can affect you greatly. As well as landlords and their rules. The great thing about mainland is that you can learn, and then dump it and get what you want.

2) You'll be very needy for a time, learning learning learning learning. And that's right and good. But with that you'll need a place to make mistakes, and friends to help out who are either mentors (and want to help), or even better yet friends near the same level as yourself. You'll learn and grow together. On a teensy parcel, you might be making a landlord something like 14 cents a week but burning up 3 or 4 hours a week of the landlord's time figuring out 'what's a prim?' or 'why should I group deed my land?' ... not a great basis for either one of you.

3) Eventually you'll see that it's not so much about land, but about friends and similar interests. You might not want that beautiful bit of beach in the slave sex community area, for instance, whereas others would prefer it. Get yourself acculturated first, and you'll see the hallmarks of what's around and make better choices because of it.

4) Your land needs today will not be the same as next week or next month. As someone who has rented to thousands, I have generally seen this pattern... 'teeny parcel teeny parcel teeny parcel MORE LAND!!! large parcel larger parcel half a region three huge regions omg this is expensive sell off sell off sell off sell off...' ... ultimately the regular casual person might have about 1000 to 2000 prims over one or two parcels somewhere. Often about 1000 on a private estate and 1000 on mainland. Very, very common. People in the forums here are a more dedicated bunch and tend to have more.

5) I'd strongly recommend NCI's land classes. The land rules are arcane, complicated, and annoying... but practically institutionalised. It's important to know what's on offer, though, and not all land problems can even be seen easily, due to varying demands on the servers.

Good luck!

Des

As land barons go, Desmond Shang is among the least evil.

Just so ya know.

"Praising with faint damns!"

Clarissa,

I can't help asking. Are you a land baroness? If so, do you have a cloud available for rent? No, wait, that would make you a sky baroness wouldn't it?

I'm so confused, but having fun at the same time. Hey, maybe this is real life?

LOL

I was raised in a stoic family. I find it hard to gush. If I were a gusher I'd heap praise upon Desmond Shang he sure deserves it. I recommend Caledon, NCI and so on to anyone for various uses any chance I get.

Hearttau - no, I own land but it isn't for rent...But I can help you find something good maybe. It would be fun to help you find your first 512.

Lets go cloud shopping then. Thank you. You say when.

Well, first, that checking needs to include getting a clear affirmative link between an authorized spokesperson for that charity and the in-world presence. You can get that for ACS and others--they'll confirm that the SL presence is indeed part of their organization.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with charities raising funds in SL. ACS's Relay For Life is a great example of that. But you don't see ACS renting land; it's not allowed in their terms of service with LL in order to get a non-profit discount. It's my understanding that LL would have to eat the entire cost of that discount--no tax break--if those weren't the terms of the deal. (It would be very bad business for LL anyway because it would undercut a major part of their revenue: for-profit private rental estates.)

I guess it would be possible for a non-profit to give up that discount agreement and just set up shop like every other land baron. Then it would be just like offering webspace on a standard hosting agreement. So, yeah, in that case it wouldn't be a scam, but (as Des might attest) it would be an extraordinarily labor- and capital-intensive way to raise funds. I really can't imagine a serious non-profit doing that for any length of time.

Thank you. I am absolutely positively *not* going to get into this here, it comes up every now and again. You said it very well here. LL is aware of everything Virtual Ability does, and we are scrupulously careful to stay within the rules, both LL's rules and the RL laws as we are a rl non profit. Because someone's opinion is that something we are doing is fraudulent doesn't mean that it is. We also won the Linden Prize, so LL obviously does not think we are committing fraud. I am on the boards of 2 non profits, one of them being Virtual Ability. Our reputation in SL and RL is spotless. Feel free to peruse our website at www.virtualability.org You sound like a person quite capeable of drawing your own conclusions, based on evidence, not opinion, and I do hope you continue to do so. Cheers.....

I thought Qie meant when a sim rents houses to other residents. That he meant that isn't charity. It's for profit.

Treasure, your org. is a really good one.

Also I don't think LL is against charities in SL in itself, because they just spotlighted all those charities recently.

But if that profit goes to charity it's, well, still charity isn't it? Apples and oranges as someone eluded to.

Qie Niangao,

I can say we mostly agree with each other.

Treasure,

I'll be stopping by to say hi.

Now...Must...Get...Off...Line!

Depends on what you're renting.

Most rental places in SL are parcels of land. It may include a house, provided by the landlord, or it might be vacant land on which you can put your own house. In either case, you can put out all the trees/flower boxes/swingsets/garden gnomes you want...as long as you stay within your prim allowance and your stuff doesn't extend past your parcel borders and bother the neighbors. (And if it's on private estate land, as long as it's within the covenant. A place that says, "no weapons" might object to the Abrams tank in the front yard).

Some places in SL will rent you an apartment on a large shared land parcel, and give you a prim allowance. In this case, whatever the landlord says, goes. Generally you are allowed to put any furniture/decorations you want inside the apartment, but aren't allowed to leave things lying about outside, like your Harley Davidson or rusty old truck.

Are those terms available online? I didn't see them on the non-profit page at http://secondlifegrid.net/slfe/non-profit-use-virtual-world.

It's not clear that there are any tax issues. I'm not sure whether LL can even take a deduction on a discounted price. (C-corps have different rules than everyone else, and there are lots of issues about valuing it.) But if we assume they can, then it really doesn't matter to LL what the charity does with it.

It does, however, matter to the charity, because there are limits on what they can earn from unrelated businesses. It could just mean they have to pay tax on the income, but it's unlikely to be illegal. For example, a certain university I visit frequently has a Dunkin Donuts and a Subway occupying space in their student union. The franchises are clearly for-profit activities, and they are paying rent to the university. I don't know whether the university has to pay tax on their rental income, but it's obviously not an illegal activity in any way.

I do agree with the last part, about undercutting LL. That's a private matter between LL and the charity, and LL is certainly free to prohibit that sort of rental. They might, in some cases, consider the goodwill to be worth it.

There's yet another version of renting I didn't see mentioned (on a quick skim through). Buy mainland (it's very cheap right now) and rent the tier from an agent. It often works out cheaper than paying it direct to LL, and you can pay in L$ - handy for me as I have too many to readily spend but not enough to cash out.

Many people have spare tier, which they can deed to a brokerage group for a payment in L$. Other customers can rent tier from that 'bank' for a fee, again usually in L$. The brokerage group charges a small mark-up, naturally. The main advantage is you can rent tier in much more convenient chunks than you can from LL, who deal in rather large steps once you get over 4096m.

AFAIK, you can't do this for estate land, and I know some people would rather eat their legs than live on mainland. It is an option worth knowing about, though.

And, at least for amounts up to 8192, it is cheaper than paying LL for the same amount of tier.