ESC apparently exempt from GPL requirement for SL source

I crossed a line with that post and I apologize and since edited that post to remove that line, however I would like to note that I do not appreciate being talked down to so please watch your tone as well, I think other residents in this thread probably feel the same way when talking to them as well though I of course can't speak for them.

And no it isn't a bash ESC fest however I'll take you on your word that ESC does give back to the community I have not once seen it (and no creating search engines and store sites doesn't count) and considering what they take and get out of it I think you can understand why many residents (myself included) don't especially like ESC and more-so what it stands for.

I haven't studied the agreement (I really should sometime) but I think they have to give credit though as part of the agreement, or even if they don't have to they do anyway since it's the ethical thing to do giving credit to your contributors.

god I am so sick of hearing about ESC

bah I will not get their viewer, bad enough SL has my info, if I use the ESC viewer who is to say that they will not have access to my info (password, thus access to my account, thus access to my credit card)

no thanks

I've used it, and no it doesn't as far as I can tell crash any more than the standard SL viewer, however the times I have used it I used an alt, not so much because I fear that they'll sell my personal info but because it takes me awhile to trust any third party viewer, even for Nicholaz's I didn't use my main account for a long while on it.

How exactly did I insult your intelligence?

So some people have made friends, so what? How is that wrong? And when did anyone ever deny it? Pray tell, what grand conspiracy do those friendships constitute this week?

Look, I can only speak for myself, but I have no trouble telling you I'm proud of who my friends are. I would never deny the nature of my relationships with any of them. I don't think many other people would ever seek to deny who their friends are either. I really don't understand what you're trying to say. It doesn't seem to make the slightest bit of sense.

The vibe I'm getting from you here is that you seem to think the only path to corporate success is through underhanded dealings, and so that's how everyone operates, including LL and ESC. I'm really sorry if that's how you feel, as it means you're missing all the best parts of what it means to be in business in a free society. Maybe you worked for a company or two where that was the case (I certainly have in the past) and that colored your judgment. I can assure you that such practices are not how most people operate. I hope you'll come to accept that some day.

At the time I was hired by ESC, a number of companies were seeking to recruit me. I chose ESC specifically because its leaders struck me as particularly honest and ethical. A year later, no one in the company has given me any reason to change that assessment in any way. I only wish you could get past whatever predisposition towards suspicion you seem to have so you could see what I see. If they for one minute were to give me any reason to doubt them, I'd leave. They never have though, and I firmly believe they never will. I love working with these people; I really do.



What specifically do you feel I'm denying? I'm continually amazed at how some people try to read between the lines instead of just accepting what's there in black and white at face value.

Look, I think you've seen enough of my posts to know that I'm ALWAYS as open as I possibly can be in everything I say. Whenever there's something I'm not allowed to talk about, I always say so. But other than that I rarely can resist an opportunity to talk at great length whenever a subject comes up that I happen to know much about. How could it be possible to do that, and hide information at the same time? I don't get it.

If I had to guess, I'd say your goal here is to try to make me as angry about nothing as some other people seem to be. That's the only rationale I can think of for what you just said. I thought you were better than that, and I'd like to continue thinking that. Please tell me I'm guessing wrong.


Surely you must realize what a spectacularly oxymoronic satement that is, right? "Anyone can get preferential treatment," wow. You do understand that by definition, "preferential treatment" is treatment that not everyone can get, right? Yet you just said anyone can get it, which means it's not actually preferential, but somehow it is, because you said so. I feel like I might see infinity if I keep trying to analyze this. Cool.

For the record, Mirriam-Webster defines "preference" (within the context of "preferential treatment" as the act, fact, or principle of giving advantages to some over others. Got that? Some over others. That means there's simply no way that ANYTHING, could be available to everyone and also be "preferential".

So which is it? IT can't be both.

Or am I just doing more "corporate style denial" by using such tools as facts, logic, and reason instead of just grasping for complaints? I don't mean to insult, but I have to ask, is it perhaps positivity itself that bothers you? Must there always be something negative behind everything in order for it to fit in your world? If so, I'll just say that I'm really glad your world isn't the one I live in. It's a lot more pleasant over here.

I'm willing to accept that perhaps "preferential" was a mistake in your choice of wording and that maybe you meant something else. If so, what was it?

You need to be more concise with your points. It would require an even LONGER post to answer all of your questions, and considering your tone - just lead to a flame war.

Its simply not worth it.

Ill address only the questions which I feel actually matter.

--------------

Someone offering to make LL money will get preferred treatment over someone just purchasing the service. Thus Anyone offering to make LL money will get Preferential treatment. There is no contradiction in terms.

Electric sheep has benefited financially from interpersonal relationships between some of their organization and the Lindens. This would be what has been categorically denied over the years.

I know why the denial exists, I am not impressed, nor fooled by it.

I have no intention of digging through the archives to find the threads. I am merely stating my opinion, the stated opinions of others and what seems insanely obvious.

If you have a problem with how LL does their business, fork the code and STFU. Whiners.

What if someone is okay with how they do business but not the poor and even deceptive communication associated with informing us of how they do business?

Thanks for that.


I wasn't aware that I'd "talked down" to you in any way. I simply asked you to stop calling people names, and then I offered to do whatever I can to find answers to your questions, and offer which still stands What more could you want?

I'll admit that my somewhat formal writing style can seem a little standoffish sometimes. It happens to be the only way I know how to write. Both my parents were national merit scholars, both with PhD's. Growing up in my family, to adopt a formal command of the written English language was just a given. We were all raised to be prolific writers, and as such we don't always fit in perfectly on the Internet, the one place where writing tends to be as informal as talking. Try as I might, I just can't bring myself to write in run-on sentences, or fragments, or mono-paragraphs, or any of the other things that have become what is the common language of the Internet. So please understand that while my level of written formality may stand out a bit, it's not intended to be down-talk, just grammatical.


Thanks for taking my word for it. If I can get some specific examples of what our devs have contributed to the open source effort, I'll post them.

As for why you feel improving the ability to search the world, or to offer a completely commission-free sales service, doesn't count as giving to the community, I can't imagine. Maybe you just don't search, don't shop, and don't sell anything. I don't know. To each, his own.


What I understand is how people can get upset based on assumption and rumor. I don't quite understand how the assumptions and rumors come into being in the first place, but I do see how many of them would be troubling if perceived as truth.

The fact is you probably have no idea what ESC "stands for". Have you ever asked? I'd bet you haven't. You probably think you have a pretty good idea based on your own assumptions and your own interpretations from what you think you've seen, but I'm willing to believe also that you have enough self awareness and self confidence to accept that what you've been assuming might not actually be how it actually is.

I mentioned earlier that I chose to work for ESC because of the honesty and integrity of its leadership. To me, that's one of the most important things the company "stands for".

In my first conversation with the CEO, who called me personally to discuss my potentially coming on board, he said "We do in-world projects for real world companies, as you know, but we're also developing software to make Second Life easier for everyone use." Right away, I was thinking "Bingo! This is the company I need to be working with. These guys get it." Second Life (and virtual worlds in general) should be made simple enough that anyone and everyone can use them, just like E-mail, web browsers, word processors, etc. This is another example of one of the most important things ESC stands for, bringing virtual worlds into the mainstream in a huge way.

I also believe that business, education, entertainment, and other real-world institutions have a right to exist in virtual worlds, and that virtual worlds need those institutions in order to thrive. Obviously, ESC believes that as well, and "stands for" it since the most well-known part of what we do is our corporate builds (my job).

Those are just a few of the many things ESC stands for in my eyes. I'd imagine from what you've been saying that you have a somewhat different picture. I'd encourage you to talk to us about whatever it is. If you genuinely understand us and don't like it, that's fine. But I'd hate to think that you've made that decision based on an inaccurate assessment.

As for this notion of what the company "takes and gets out of it", I'm not sure what you mean. I realize that some people get upset whenever someone else succeeds, but there's nothing we can do about people like that. It's not like we can decide to fail just so those people will like us better. Yes we make our livings in virtual worlds, and yes we love doing it. Sorry if that's hard for some people to accept, but there's nothing wrong with it. I really wish those people could find it within themselves to be happy for the successes of others, rather than having this insatiable need to complain about it and find fault with it. I'm sure they'd lead much more enjoyable lives if they could. Oh well.

I understand, it just comes off that way and thanks for clarifying that.



Don't feel that you need to do that for me, though I'm sure that more residents than just me are interested in that and I'm sure are willing to give ESC the recognition they deserve like Strife, Nicholaz, and others have gotten for their contributions.




I didn't realize it was commission free, and yes I do search and shop, though until recently (I'll admit I do use shop.onrez both as a buyer and a seller) I had no need for outside services but I doubt anyone will argue that LL has somewhat dropped the ball lately on that... but that's another thread.



I'm always open to the fact that I may be wrong, and yes like everyone I do make assumptions sometimes even though I try to avoid it if I can. I still have yet to see ESC prove me wrong though.



I think a big problem with the rumors and assumptions in terms of the ESC is that to remain competitive ESC has weighed the balance of openness vs secrecy towards secrecy so they can remain a step ahead, which makes sense however ESC being builders, scripters... etc hasn't really reached out in a PR sense towards people, however it is not my place to tell you how to run your company but if your (ESC) are willing to talk I'm more than willing to listen since even though I may disagree with ESC on some things I do respect the skill of it's employees and am more than willing to clear up any misconceptions I may have.

As far as the viewer is concerned it's already been done and as far as the server is concerned a fork without the original is impossible however there have been attempts to replicate the function of the servers based on what is known and on the protocol info that LL has already open sourced.

I don't think so. Sorry if you don't like to read the way I write, but it is what it is.


Well, considering you all but called me a liar by saying me earlier post "reeked of denials", I think my tone in response was actually rather reserved. If that wasn't your interpretation, then yes, it's probably best that you chose to leave it alone.


It IS a contradiction in terms.

First, someone purchasing the service IS making LL money. That's how LL makes its money. It's a subscription service. What part of that isn't clear?

Obviously your point is that one who enters into different business relationship with LL than a normsl subscriber relationship will get DIFFERENT treatment than would a subscriber. Different doesn't mean preferential; it just means different. It's dangerous to confuse the two.

"Preferential" implies unfairness. As we've discussed, the fact that all types of treatment are available to all people makes it completely fair, and thus not preferential. I fail to see how that could be hard to understand.


And you know this how? You're making assumptions.


There's no way to win on this one, you realize. If it didn't happen, you won't accept it. It had to have happened, and if anyone says otherwise, they're lying. Nice.


Enlighten me then. Why do they exist?

I have no problem saying I got my foot in the door at ESCby way of a personal friendship (a good friend of mine who at the time had a business relationship with ESC mentioned to me that they were hiring, and encouraged me to pursue the opportunity). I also have no problem admitting that in my previous business, many of my customers, vendors, creditors, etc. were personal friends. There's nothing wrong with that, so why would anyone ever see fit to deny anything about it?

Seriously, even if you put the morality of truth-telling aside for a second, what could possibly be gained by lying about something so mundane as who your friends are? I simply don't get why anyone would ever do that.


Please try to keep in mind, just because something seems obvious doesn't mean it's true. It's "obvious" that the world is flat, but it's not. It's "obvious" that the sun goes around the earth, but it doesn't. It's "obvious" that I'm making a lot of sense here, but you're still probably gonna choose to believe I'm not.

Accusations and denials of favoritism regarding ESC have existed since 2005 and ESC was just a baby electric lamb company.

They burned up a fair amount of remaining credibility with the "opt-out" Search Bot plan they imposed on people. The poorly implemented beta cost a small number of residents to lose money. Residents who had never heard of the search bot.

LL is a small company. ESC is a small company. They have grown up together. Many of the people involved know each other and have for years, naturally there is some resulting collusion. Most unofficial of course. It would be more surprising if it didn't exist.

I already told you I'm not going to play debate point for point with you.

Go attempt baffle someone else.

Now a lot have read that I'm negative on all this. That means you didn't read very carefully.


Linden Lab can hop into bed with whoever they want. Its their company.

Electric Sheep can court LL too, and vice versa. Hey whatever floats their boat.

But when they both show up late for work wearing the same thing they did the day before following a rousing Super 8 adventure ...

Don't be surprised people know whats been going down and don't buy the resulting stammered excuses.

I'm not on the software team, so my understanding of this is a bit limited, but here's what I think everyone would want in an ideal world. Have the main core of the viewer always be open source, and then allow third parties to add proprietary or open plugins to it as they see fit. I think one day it will get there, but in the here and now, that plugin capability does not exist. So the only option for ESC to protect certain parts was to close the whole thing. There was just no other way to do it (yet).

This unfortunately has upset some people, understandably. I think the comapany probably could have done a better job of explaining the why's beforehand, but there are probably some who would have been just as upset regardless. A small but loud percentage of people never believe the why's anyway. Conspiracy theories are more fun to write about, I guess.



That's an interesting observation. One thing ESC is very good at is generating great PR for our corporate clients in SL. I'd like to think we've been equally effective at marketing ourselves as a positive force in SL, but if we're haven't been, that's something we should take a look at. It's food for thought, so thanks for mentioning it. I'll definitely pass it along.

In fairness, I do have to say that this forum, for better or worse, tends to be full of far more negativity than the rest of SL. It's always been that way. For some reason, negative thoughts seem to congest and stew here in a very unusual way (which is why Lindens rarely dare to tread here anymore). With that being the case, I think a lot of what gets said here tends to go ignored, as most people just don't have the time or the stomach to sort through it. That in turn has the effect of making people even angrier, as no one likes to be ignored, and the commentary then turns even more negative than it already was. Before you know it, ESC, LL, and everyone else with a well known name, is pure evil, and there's just no easy way to combat that perception here.

I don't mean to downplay what you're saying, but in the spirit of openness I must admit I do think it has to be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt. I think everyone accepts that the opinions of those who frequent the forums are not representative of the SL public at large. Still I believe there is most definitely some merit to what you're saying, and I'll certainly bring it up with the powers that be.


I appreciate the compliment about the skills. Thanks for that.

If there's anything you want to talk about, I'd say don't hesitate to come at us directly. Contact info is on our website (electricsheepcompany.com) I can't promise how quickly anyone in particular might respond, as we're all insanely busy all the time, but I think you'll find that many of us would be more than happy to talk.

I think the biggest thing driving the rumor mill is that people (unfortunately) tend to find it easier to speculate than just to ask. I'm happy to help change that whenever I can, and I think it's safe to say that the company as a whole is too.

Sorry we can't see eye to eye, Collette. It seems facts and logic have larger place in my world, while speculative opinion carries more weight in yours. It's unlikely that we'll ever find much to agree on with that being the case. Oh well.

I guess his intelligent baffling worked on me. It's all makes perfect sense.




How in SL does ESC's hands in LL's cookie jar effect your way of SL life? I mean, wtf cares if they are all having a group orgy at the Super 8? This point I don't get. Is ESC making you lose money? Are they hurting residents experiences?

Please don't take me the wrong way. I like to read and learn WITHOUT forming my own opinions based on 'he said, she said'.



My guess is that you had dealings with ESC in the past when that 'small number of residents lost money'(I'm also 95% sure my guess is wrong, but hey you never know). I've been searching the archives like you said.. its all "Accusations". That's all it can be without PROOF.

What I see in this heated discussion between you and Chosen is, he's making clear valid points from his own dealings and working for ESC. You are making your points from what you read here on the forums. Yes, they are both opinions. As far as a 'tone' from text, I didn't sense any till your recent posts.


Just my two cents from all that I have read. :/

please, both of you, enough already, really, you're cluttering the forum with a discussion that should have gone private a page ago at least

the key points have been met
LL provides some code as open source under GPL

fixes to that code are provided back to LL as co-owners (crappy sytem, but that's the agreement)

LL can provide anyone they want with code they have ownership of under any license they choose... end of story, moot point

if anything people should bitch about the fact that fixes to their code get incorporated without credit (fiscal or otherwise) to the originators, while LL reaps the benefits... except users aren't going to complain, because they get the benefits for free... the people getting screwed here are the developers, but hey, we're used to it ::eyeroll::

Chosen, I admire your contribution to these forums. I'm a fan. But the post I'm about to quote is dripping with condescension. I have to say you've knocked yourself down a peg or so.







and this



and now this



If all the sheep were as helpful and available as you I'd be a fan of the whole lot of 'em. You've put a friendly face on them. You've been a good embassador. Please don't blow it.

wrong, Wrong, and WRONG

LL as the copyright holders of the GPL can and do dual license the product. Many Companies do this. ES don't have to release their modifications because they did not receive the code under the GPL license. (apparently)

Heard of MySQL? check out their license at http://www.mysql.com/company/legal/licensing/

Trolltech? Namesys? Red Hat?

Need any more examples?

The "rumors" they have been in bed together has been a badly kept secret for years. I doubt the forums search will take you far enough back to find the origins. If I had to guess it would be the June 2005ish time frame.

It doesn't really affect me negatively which is what I was trying to say. I just find the whole corporate deniability and claims of unbiased "fairness" nonsense.

Of course wasn't referring to just this viewer, I'm more referring to the big picture. The whole viewer thing truly seems like no big deal to me.

No I didnt lose any money becuase of ESC. There was a thread where someone lost much of a completed sim worth of items due to it, however.

I am not some sort of anti-ESC crusader. I don't like their search-bot that is it. I never participated in those early favoritism charges.

Anya, thanks for the kind words and for the criticism. I really don't think anything I said was in any way out of line, and certainly not condescending, but I see how when you take these comments out of context and lay them all right next to each other, they might seem overly harsh. I don't wish to derail the thread, since Void rightly pointed out that the original topic has been fully addressed, but I do feel the need to respond. Let me take a minute to address each of your quotes one by one, if you don't mind.


If you'd seen what the posts in question looked like before they were edited, I'm sure you'd agree that what I said here was warranted. Even the author seemed to agree, and we had what I think was a very productive conversation afterwards.

I've always felt that this is the right way to respond to insults. It might be slightly unusual in its degree of both candid truthfulness and directness, but I believe it's the most mature and helpful thing to do, and it's effective.


I have absolutely no idea what you feel is wrong with this statement. I didn't know the exact answer the OP needed, so I had to dip into my own well of common sense to come up with one, and I made a point of openly declaring that that's what I was doing. What's wrong with that?


Again, I see nothing wrong with asking someone who's been name-calling to stop, nor with pointing out what is the ultimate folly of such behavior, the fact that it usually serves to make the caller, not the callee, look most foolish in the eyes of the readers. Contrary to popular wisdom, ignoring name-calling does not make it go away. This did. Leaving it alone would have accomplished nothing, but this paved the way for what eventually became exactly the type of mature conversation I was hoping to have with OP from the start, just as it was intended to do.


The first paragraph here was meant to be slightly tongue-in-cheek. I think maybe some people got that and some didn't. This is the only part you've quoted that I think in retrospect maybe wasn't the best way I could have proceeded. Such ambiguity can be fun to write, but the danger of misinterpretation is too great. Point noted. Thanks.

As for citing the dictionary, sometimes that's the only way to prove a point in a discussion about wordings. I see nothing wrong with it.

Wording is important. What can seem insidious if you call it one thing, can appear completely reasonable if you cal it something else, especially when it's put in writing. In this case, the use of the word "preferential" had a very unnecessarily negative connotation to it, so I felt it imperative to examine the definition of the word itself. It was the only way to show completely how the word didn't fit the circumstance. It was the right thing to do.


I'm confused why you put this part on your list, and especially why you saw fit to leave out the first sentence, which was what had put the whole thing in context. Look, every childhood has it's pressures, every family its demons, and they always serve to shape how we act and think later in life. The above paragraph describes some of mine. I think it served its purpose as an explanation of why I can't help but write the way do, and the person to whom it was addressed seemed to agree in full. So what's the problem?


I hope this helps to put things a little more in perspective for you, Anya. If after reading this, you still prefer to cling to your own first impressions of those quotes rather than the author's (my) direct explanations of what they meant, then I guess there's nothing I'll be able to say to talk you out of that, unfortunately. Thanks again for your attention on this. I hope I've gained back some of those lost pegs in your assessment.

This thread has officially gone off the deep end through no fault of Chosen and a few other people who've tried to keep it on track so I'm going to stop even trying to post coherent talks in here. Chosen I may be in touch via the site.