"Debit" message popping up when obj rezzes

Hi;

I won't name and shame because it's against TOS here and also just not my style. But something odd has been happening when I try to use an object I bought.

It's a game table. I don't know but it looks like the official version of it. Yes I bought it in world from a shop, I didn't buy a hacked version from someone's inventory.

When I rez the object, a yellow 'debit request' pops up. It wants to take my lindens. If I click on 'details' it says I am about to grant it permission to take my lindens. Why would it do that? Any legit reason?

I did notecard the creator. They said that the table needs to charge people for using it and when asked why it would ask me for more $L even though I bought it, they said "it needs to be able to refund bad payments." Huh? My payment went through, I checked my transaction list.

So what's up? I do NOT want people to be charged for playing; I won't always be there to make sure no one's being charged; and I don't want that debit pop up at all. What can I do?

By the way I have played this game elsewhere and it doesn't give a debit pop up. This is meant to be a free game! I'm a bit cheesed as I paid about $2000L for the table. Intending to let the public play for fun and for free. I don't want them getting a pay option. Beyond all that - how do I know who the Lindens are even going to.

:/

it is to be able to refund bad payments made by people that pay the game the wrong amount

that is what he means

also if the game pays out any money to a winner it needs to have the debit permission to be able to pay out.

most games that require money, will not work without debit permissions. (Most, not All)

the debit only pops up for you, because you are now the owner.

If the game is meant to be played for free, ask the creator if they have a no debit permission version, where folks can just touch it to play (that is IF it is not paying any money out to anyone who wins or hits a certain score, if it is purely entertainment, then a no debit one should be available, or the creator should make it available)

I don't want it to ask people for money, though. And I'm afraid to click wrong then it takes L$ from me and sends it to the creator. How can I be sure what it's doing?

I don't want to run a tourney or a gambling casino I just want people to be able to chill & have fun. & thanks for answering Rhaorth, I really appreciate it.

no problem

Sorry I hit enter too quick on the other reply, added to it.

I guess contact the creator, as I suggested and see if they have a version that doesn't require money either coming in or going out.

(as for how can you be sure.... you can't, not unless they send you the script so you can see it for yourself and they are not going to do that and end up basically giving away their game)

not saying you would do that with the script, just the creators have to protect themselves too.

You can either.. ask them for a no money one, or if you see their games in a LOT of places, you can be pretty sure they are not a scam, because if they were would all those ppl use it too?

(I mean a LOT LOT... enough so that you would not suspect, alts, and friends of padding it to look legit)

If you purchased a "gaming" (gambling?) device that people have to pay into, and possibly recieve a payout and/or refund if they pay a wrong amount, then yes you have to grant debit permissions. You, as the owner of the device, is who will be providing payouts/refunds.

LOL Ken (I like your edit comment)

I tend to hit submit too soon, then think of another point and edit the post, then think of another... etc

so my answers usually come in chunks LOL

Thanks both. I appreciate it.

I'd be paying out if my table granted L$ to someone? I Like this less and less...Lol.

Yes it's a very big name popular SL game which was why I was surprised I never heard about this debit request before. I've never gotten it or been asked to click to pay and I've played the game all over SL. But it also does not look like the tables I played at, which is partly what made me question this pop up asking for L$ - especially as it had no number attached to it. For all I know granting it could drain & continue to drain my account.

I asked the creator if there was any way to disable or remove the debit script. They should sell the tables with/without IMO.

only if it is supposed to pay out

being I have no clue what the game is, I am only giving you examples of when a game needs debit permission

you do not get the debit permission request unless you are the owner of the game
people playing the game do not see that request

if the game can be configured to be pay to play,or awards L's to the winner then yes that script makes sense, otherwise if it is always free to play, then it makes no sense

(again, dunno what the game is LOL)

It's really good that you stopped and asked, but any device that might need to award a cash prize, or make change, or issue refunds, needs to have debit permissions. That you got the popup isn't in and of itself a sign that it's up to no good. Barring a chance to examine the script, it's up to you to make a decision based on the reputation of the maker (and do beware of objects bought from a third party, who might have changed the script or added a new script before passing it on to you) and whether it seems like a sensible thing for a particular scripted object to need to do.

What you say about there being no cap placed on how much money the thing might take from you is true, and an unfortunate limitation of LSL. There's no way to put a cap on these things. Might be a good reason to make an alt (a very *poor* alt)

If this is the popular game you say it is, though, and the creator has a good reputation, then you're probably fine. As lots of other people have pointed out, a game like this very likely can be made to award cash prizes and such and so has a solid reason for needing debit permission.

Possibly there is an option to set pay in and out to zero. I have a cool "camper" computer desk that always asks me that question when rezzed. I answer "yes" then set pay to zero.

Got it for the build quality and animation.

Should be covered in the notecard that came with purchase. For $L2,000 you should get a notecard with instructions!

There is another thread in this forum about how the Second Life permissions system has been cracked, and it is possible for someone to steal an object, including the scripts inside it, and make objects that have any owner and permission that they want. If that's true, then there is no way to tell who made the objects, whether you have a legitimate copy or an adulterated copy, or what those other objects are. All bets are totally off as to who the owner/creator of an object is, because it is now possible to forge all of that.

I have not seen a demonstration of this capability, but I tend to believe it.

Have an alt buy it. Make sure that alt never has a lot of cash.

That should take care of a lot of the risk.

I have 2 vendors for other peoples products, when I set them up I got that yellow menu, but when you click on the vendor to buy something it says it'll pay me, so it's so they can take the money people pay me for the products.

this is SL anything is possible

a good dose of paranoia is not a bad thing, but when you let it control your life (sl or rl) that is not so good

This. Even if the device is set to not take or pay money, once it gets debit permission it can decide to drain its owner's account whenever it feels like it, so it's best to make sure it's owned by somebody who doesn't have much to lose.

There have been a lot of discussions among scripters about this business of refunding wrong-amount payments; usually a consensus emerges that it's almost never useful as long as the device is properly scripted (with llSetPayPrice()). (This might be different if a script could even tell when transactions go awry, but as it is, scripts can't tell if they've successfully given inventory or paid anybody anyway, so refunding a wrong payment is kind of rearranging the deck chairs.)

In contrast, debit permission is simply required for devices that pay out as part of their basic function (as this one is apparently designed to do in its default mode of operation). The underlying reason for this is that objects cannot own L$s. When one appears to be paying an object such as a vendor, that money always goes to an avatar (or a group, temporarily). So it's not as if a script has its own little pool of L$s from which to pay out; instead, that pool of L$s is always its owner's L$ balance.

I've already bought it, which is what made me nervous. Even if the creator has a good reputation, who's to say someone couldn't script something to do whatever in future? Especially an item that had sold like hotcakes. Imagine the sudden influx of income. The creator deletes their SL account and bye-bye.



This is what I said to the creator, too; how could an object reliably tell who was owed what? I don't trust it to the extent I want to open my account and say here, pay out what you think is owed. Lol



Exactly and especially since a creator could re-script in future once debit permission is granted, do I want to allow this? No.

It did turn out to have a pay 0 option but still...I do not see any of this as enough reason to require a customer to grant debit permissions to an object the creator still has ultimate control over (through updates and whatever else). Anyone could put a time bomb in a script from the moment they made it, etc. I'm not accusing, I'm just saying all these are good enough reasons in my opinion not to grant debit rights to a total stranger's creation.

Rhaorth - to me this is just being sensible.

Thanks all for the replies I learned a lot and really appreciate the various information/support.

I am a creator of a particular scripted device that takes payments and refunds money in certain circumstances. I have a couple of things to say about this subject.

1) I disagree with Qie in that there is at least one particular circumstance where giving a refund is needed. That scenario is when you have to allow free form entry of payment because you accept any amount over a particular threshold. Any payment beneath this threshold should be refunded if paid, otherwise it is theft.

2) The scripted devices I create tend to ask for debit permission only when the amount to pay is set to above L$0, if the free use option is set then I never ask for debit permissions.
Of course once the free-to-play option is changed to pay-to-play then you have to ask for the debit perms which cannot be rescinded for the lifetime of that rezzed object. This is a reason why my devices tend to be able to be copied, then when changing back from paying to free the device can be deleted and a fresh one rezzed for which debit perms have not been asked.

None of the above will work though if the device defaults to wanting payment and free is not the default choice. For these kinds of devices a free to play version can be included which never asks debit permission.

A good scripter will always include a free to play option that does not involve giving debit perms.

Sadly there are some truly innovative devices out there that in most respects are well executed as a product but have some deficiencies when it comes to the scripting, some serious, some not so serious.
In this case I doubt the scripter thinks that the debit thing is that much of a big deal because they know they will never scam anyone, sadly it is hard to convince others of what you might know to be true.

Anyone who does business in SL that involves payments to or from objects has to accept these kinds of permissions. For example, tipjars accept money from tippers and distribute part of it to the dancer. To do this, it needs debit permission. Other examples include vendors that split proceeds and sploders.

If the game in question didn't involve money in any way, then it shouldn't ask for debit permission. As mentioned above, it's possible that when configured not to use money in any way, it doesn't ask for permission.

When people use objects like this and grant permissions, they're explicitly trusting the merchant from whom they bought the object. Once they do so, they should watch their transaction record like a hawk, and make sure that every payout makes sense.

The vast majority of business objects in SL are legitimate. Believe me, there are businesspeople who do watch their transactions like a hawk and want an explanation for every linden paid out until they're reassured that the object is working as it's supposed to. This is a good thing! I highly recommend it.

In any case, NEVER accept the debit permission popup unless you know why you're doing it, and have a very good idea whom you're trusting when you do so, starting with the merchant who sold you the item. Generally, the merchant is also the creator as well, which simplifies things.

I bought the Greedy Greedy game from the original creator, and while it did ask for debit perms when I first rezzed it, there is no pay in or pay out option whatsoever. I think that there's another part to the game that requires rezzing of a separate object. I'm not sure, but I think I'll sell it to my alt just to be safe.

I did not say you weren't

I just said that there is healthy paranoia and then there is too much

yours is not too much, you are doing what is right for you

Melita,

This is always a scary thing to have happen, and there ARE scam objects out there that do this and then drain your account if you grant the permission.

But as others have said, there are also legitimate reasons for an object to need debit permissions. My HIPPO rental boxes, for example, need this so that if a renter leaves early and is entitled to a refund, the box can pay them (out of my account). Note that the rental box (and your game) will not request debit permissions from anyone else...just you, the owner. You will see this only once, when you rez the object in world, and other players will not see it at all.

Note that my rental boxes ask for debit permission EVEN IF I AM NOT GOING TO ALLOW REFUNDS, which is a settable option. I suspect your game is the same way...you can probably set it up as a free-play game, and your players can use it (and not get prizes paid for out of your account). But read the instruction manual.

I have a poker table that I believe used to be a play-for-lindens table back before gambling was banned. The version I have (which was purchased in 200 came with that feature permanently disabled, however it does ask me for debit rights when I rez it and it will not work unless I say yes. It has been rezzed in world on and off for over a year and it's never been a problem. I assume that it needs debit rights in case someone tries to pay the table, so that the money can be refunded.

In which case why didn't the creator simply not script it to be paid?

Thanks again all, for the various viewpoints/info. I agree completely that no one should check yes on a debit pop up unless/until they A. know why and B. know the creator and trust them implicitly with their future lindens which is what you are in effect doing.

Others may feel it's worth the risk or balances out for the trouble of painstakingly watching one's transactions lists every moment - but in many cases I feel it won't be worth that trouble. And, again, if the creator decided to build something into it to empty anyone's account who bought it, then delete their sl account and do a runner, what recourse is there?

I don't see why any game would have this enabled automatically. Since most people play for free and gambling is not allowed in SL I'd think free play would be the default. (If casinos were the norm then this current default would be more sensible. But most people are buying for fun/friends at their SL home.) Nor was there an easy way to figure out how to set it to pay 0. But then I'm not a great one for reading long wordy technical notecard(s) plural. A simple pop up when it's rezzed walking someone through setup and offering options would be so much more user friendly/noob friendly I'd think.

Rhaorth I know you didn't mean it that way. I've just been a bit sensitive lately perhaps, and felt like I should state my reasoning.

How easy is it to revoke the payment right if you need?

You cannot without deleting the object that has been granted debit perms and rezzing a new one.