Question about reselling

Advice needed community peeps...

Someone has a lot with various items for sale. I know that many of these are freebies being resold for 300-500$L. That is clearly not on.

However, when I quizzed him about it he said he had bought the objects himself and so was entitled to sell them on.

The question is this: if someone buys an object - whether or not it is itself a sold-on freebie - and that object's permissions are set in such a way that it can be resold, is it ok to resell it, or does it contravene the intellectual property rights of the original maker?

I know it's against the spirit of SL - even if it's being done in ignorance - but is it actually against any terms and conditions?

Thanks for any help.

Merlin

An example: some artists are selling textures, which would be quite useless without full permissions. Without copy permission the user wouldn't be able to apply the texture to more than 1 prim, and resell permission is needed to allow the sale of products where these textures have been applied to.

Since they have full perms, they could theoretically be resold. But in this case it's clearly against the TOS. The texture artist has no other choice than leaving all perms on his wares, nonetheless he holds the IP right as well as the RL copyrights of the image file. The fact that something can be copied and resold doesn't mean it's allowed to resell it.

You could compare it with an audio CD or a DVD in RL. One can copy those mediums as well, the CD even without any quality loss. One can scan the inlay and booklet and print a hundred copies. There's no effective copy protection, but it's a crime nonetheless.

Reselling freebies is a rather blurry case; even if it doesn't violate TOS (afaik, I could be wrong) it's clearly a scam - reselling a ware that one neither crafted nor paid for, practically stealing money from anyone who is unaware that they can get it for free.

I wouldn't dare risk my reputation that way. I use to disable the resell perm on my freebies, but used to give some freebies out with full permissions a while ago. It always comes out if someone resells your freebies, since the customers IM the creator as soon as they have a problem or question.

/Edit: if something comes without copy permission, you're of course allowed to resell it. There are many garden sales in SL; no one objects to that.
It would get a little awkward again if you were to buy a hundred copies of a tradeable ware and try to resell it with profit, since the creator still does the end customer service and has to deal with customers who paid more for his products than usual, but not to him. In other words: customers who might feel overpriced and ripped off. Also, the creator can't foresee how a reseller would advertise the product; what if the reseller's ads promise something that the product can't hold up to? Complicated subject

You need to ask the maker in question if it's not clear.

Not enabling technical copy protection on an item (ie, not turning on the 'no copy' on 'no transfer') controls does not wave the creator's IP rights in that regard. (Just the same as, if you leave your front door open, that doesn't make it legal to steal your things.)

Reselling items that are set to no-copy/tranfers, I would consider ethical because you are not gaining per se, but selling the items like you might in RL.

Reselling things that you have copy/transfer rights on is pretty dubious, because now you're taking away sales from the original maker/seller and making a profit. Most sellers sell things copy/no transfer or no copy/transfer to avoid this. This is especially nasty if the original item is intended to be free to give away.

That being said, it's not against the TOS, so other than public shaming, there's nothing stopping people from doing it.

A nice feature would be a property that said "transfer for 0 lindens only", but given how sales work this could be tricky. As I understand it, you pay the vending box and it does a scripted give of inventory to your avatar.

What about right-clicking on an object to buy it?

Selling freebies is a rip-off to the consumer, if nothing else. It's like charging some unsuspecting immigrant $50 USD to process a city library card for him, when it's something he could go to the city library and get for free. Or telling a new resident that he needs to buy a L$2000 "travel pass" to get off the mainland and visit private sims, when in fact the so-called "pass" is just an unscripted prim.

Selling freebies is almost always a violation of the intelectual property rights of the creator of the item, and therefore IS a violation of the TOS. Just because someone chooses to make something available for free, that does not erradicate their IP rights.

It is customary to box up a batch of free items and 'sell' them for a nominal cost, such as L$1 per box full, because there was a time when that was the only way to give the stuff away and still have a record of the transaction. I have no problem with that. One could also consider a nominal fee, such as L$1 to L$10 for a box full of stuff to be a 'finders fee', for the service of collecting a decent set of useful items and making them more readily available.

I do have a problem with people who obtain a free item, such as a chair or bed or sex toy, and who then resell that same, un-altered item for hundreds of L$, as if it was a 'sell for profit' item that they created. They are in that case stealing money from the customer by charging excessive amounts for something that the customer could get for free.

As someone else noted, Textures have to be sold full-perms to be commercially useful. Most texture stores have a VERY clear TOS of their own that strictly prohibits resale of the raw textures as-is. It's fine to buy a set of window textures and use those in the houses that you sell. It is illegal to take the bundle of textures and sell them yourself as raw textures.

Selling items that are "no-copy, transfer OK" is another matter entirely. You bought one item, and when you sell it, you no longer have that item. You might well rip someone off by charging more than the original sold for , but at worst you'll only do it once for each copy that you bought.

Have they ever punished someone for selling freebies? I'm in favour of it, but I am not sure if it's ever actually happened.

Under US Copyright law, it is illegal to copy or redistribute an item that you do not own the copyright to... unless you have received explicit permission from the original creator.

So the answer is simple: if you have not talked to the creator and been told "Okay, go ahead and sell it", then you are in violation of copyright law.

It's assumed that in SL, freebies are just that: free. However, those creators also expect you to not charge others for those same items.

You want to charge a "finder's fee"? Too bad. You don't have the right.

I had set out a Freebie toy that someone liked, he clicked on it, and the Original Creator had it set up to sell for $1L even though it is distributed in a Box of Freebies. I received $1L, and he, of course, Got his toy. I Promptly gave him his Dollar back. He said to me, Keep it,, It doesn't Matter,, It's only a Buck, But for me it was the Principle of the thing that was more Important. I Got it as a Freebie, and i Give it away as a Freebie. I would Never think to accept Money for it, that would just be wrong.

Angel.

Just a couple of points:

Clicking the "transfer" box IS explicit permission to resell, legally speaking.

You also have a right to charge a "finder's fee." That is exactly what Yadni does when he puts $1 on his boxes of freebies, to help finance the continuation of the junkyard. And he has the right to do so.

There's an enormous difference between the 1L Yadni charges, and the 300-500L charged for freebies by some yard sales.

And - legally speaking? I would love to see you try to argue that with a software company...

"It was copiable and I could give it to others!"

Freebie reselling is parasitism, pure and simple. I have no respect for resellers, or their cheerleaders.

You can't use lack of features, or computer "stupidity", to reshape the law. In other words, LL can't, just by putting "transfer/resell" in a single box, make those things become the same. The TOS lets retain their own rights to their creations in SL, and doesn't say you're limited to only the rights that the boxes allow. If you want to give a license to give away, but not resell, then you can still do that - it's a license that exists between humans and that humans understand. SL fails to technologically represent the license correctly but that's ok because there's no onus on you to ensure your license is technologically represented at all. I believe that legally there would be nothing wrong with setting an item full perms but telling someone you'll sue them if they give it away. This is what texture vendors do - they have to!

Totally Yumi!

In so far as the freebie items and all, does adding to the freebie outfits and selling that for a reasonable amount make a difference? All perms are as they came from wherever the freebie was picked up, but the additional self created items are however I want them set. Say a top was added to with a matching flexprim skirt and bangles or somesuch. What is ya'lls opinion of that?

AT

I posted this before, but here's a good rule of thumb.

Is the object you want to resell entirely dependent on the freebie item, and cannot function if it were deleted?

If it is, and if no one would buy the new item if the freebie was gone, then no, it's probably not right to sell it. If you took a shirt, and made your own completely original flexiprim skirt, entirely yourself, then the bulk of the work went into the skirt, not the top. If you took a freebie flexskirt and just added a texture top, then no. The bulk of the work is in the free item, not your addition, and you can't resell it.

It's like building a house and using a free texture for the windows. The bulk of the work went into the house itself, not the texture for the windows, and thus is fine. If you got a freebie house and just retextured it and resold it, unless those are some snazzy-ass textures you're probably crossing the line.

You can argue what you want about "HE CLICKED RESELL, THEREFORE I CAN RESELL IT" but pretty much every freebie, and I know Yadni's has signs everywhere saying "THESE ITEMS ARE NOT FOR RESELL" is not meant to be abused that way.

Just giving an object away or clicking a transfer box doesn't waive permissions or intellectual property.

I can put a poem I wrote on my website. You've got the capacity to right click, choose select all, and copy and then repaste it somewhere else and claim it as your own because I put it online. That isn't going to stop you from being ordered to take it down with a DMCA notice. Putting something online doesn't put it into the public domain unless EXPLICITLY STATED. This isn't a personal opinion. This is copyright law. Clicking the "transfer" checkbox doesn't remove the original creator's rights to that property and unless you got clear, written permission from them in the form of an unmodifiable notecard saying "Sell this for whatever you want, I waive my rights" you're breaking the ToS, US copyright law, and karma.

As for a "finder's fee," no. If you're completely clear that everything inside the box is free then okay. I can kindof see charging a very, very, very nominal fee for the time it took to arrange it. Like under L$100. Contrary to what Coco said, Yadni does not charge L$1 in any way to help "finance" the junkyard. He does it as a slight stop-gap for abuse.

The legalities of it aren't 100% clear as they really should be, and this is LL's fault for not being clearer. But it's entirely a rip off to charge a customer 700% for an item they can get for free, that you didn't create, that you're claiming as your own, and you're stealing. It's a rip off, it's wrong, and it's a horrible business practice. I encourage anyone knowing for sure of a place doing such a thing to post about it here:

http://forums.secondcitizen.com/forumdisplay.php?f=115

Based on Joshua's answer it sounds like I have no ethical dilemma, and anyway I wasn't worried about it, but this question applies to me. Although all of the animations I create are 100% my work, the scripts used to control them are frequently modified freebies. I think of it as I'm selling the animations and I include the scripts for free as a bonus.

Actually, while I agree wholeheartedly with the entire rest of the post, I don't think this is a particularly good rule of thumb. I use a number of freebie scripts in my products; without those scripts the products would stop working, but all the animations are 100% custom created and the scripts are a minor part of the product.

Actually, while I agree wholeheartedly with the entire rest of the post, I don't think this is a particularly good rule of thumb. I use a number of freebie scripts in my products; without those scripts the products would stop working, but all the animations are 100% custom created and the scripts are a minor part of the product. For example, there is no ethical dilemma with me using a free poseball as the controller for some animation I create.

I think they have several months ago. But I believe it has to be pretty flagrant, such as the whole store set up to sell freebies. Not so much on a single item or two, but when you start selling 10 or more, I think it's worrisome.

Also selling Linden freebies as well. Obviously they are a bit more staunch on that one. I have seen someone selling the outfits you get in the library to start off to people who didn't know any better at the time.

Hell, I've even been duped. There's a popular rug out there, I paid for it, found out later it was a freebie.

The software company in question here - LL - not only provides for the reselling of our items, but has no TOS against it. It doesn't matter whether you charge more or less than its original price.

This is different from a software company specifically stating that the item THEY sell - the software - isn't to be copied and redistributed.

LL also provides for protection for creators from having this happen: Simply click "no transfer" for that object.

There is no protection, though, from having your no-copy item resell for more than you charged for it yourself, just as there is none in the real world..

coco

P.S. Joshua, at one time Yadni had signs or notecards on his yard, explaining that he charged the $1 in order to be able to afford to keep the junkyard. Whether or not these are still there, I don't know.

P.S. Ceera, in the real world, you can't expect to give away something for free (OR charge for it), even something you personally made, and then expect to forevermore have legal say over what becomes of that object, despite the fact that you personally made it.

Actually, I bought a set of texture CDs recently and they came with a clear license saying they couldn't be resold or given away unless used within something.

And the GNU license is well-known for saying that things mustn't be sold for money.

In this example I think you're fine. No one's going to buy a script just to have the script; it has to be put into something. The bulk of the object is the external stuff, not the script itself, ergo the script is not what people are buying.

You're wrong. As I said in the example with taking poetry on a website, it's not legal to resell content that someone else created without written permission. The ToS CLEARLY states that the CREATOR retains all intellectual property on their creations. Ergo, they, and they alone, decide what happens to them, and unless you specifically have permission that it's okay you're breaking the ToS and US copyright law.



I never saw such a sign. I do recall hearing Yadni explaining in a thread about this subject that he charged because people were really abusing his system when things were completely free.

I also know that signs are posted everywhere saying that the objects are not to be resold without permission, and nearly every single object itself has "DO NOT RESELL WITHOUT PERMISSION" in its description. Someone who chooses to ignore that, transfer-enabled or not, is violating the ToS and the creator's permissions.

and therein lies the problem. In the real world, when you buy ONE of something, you GET one of something.

In SL, when you buy one of something (with full perms), you can copy it at will. However, your ability to do so and your right to do so are two different things. You are entitled by law to make backup copies only to protect your original purchase. If you give away a copyrighted item, you are required to give the copies with the original, or destroy the copies.


The US Copyright Act says "Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright." -- http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci

and It is illegal for anyone to violate any of the rights provided by the copyright law to the owner of copyright.

Simply put, you do not have the right to transfer an item except as provided in the license of said item. If the item does not have a license, or a clear indication by the author that it is free to redistribute, than you do not have the right to redistribute that item. Giving the "next user" transfer permission is NOT a legal contract. If you can point me to a phrase in any official Linden documentation that states otherwise, then you might have a case. But in the absence of any contract or agreement to the contrary, it is illegal to transfer or duplicate any work covered under copyright.

Redistributing a freebie item for free has generally become an accepted practice in SL, but only because people are allowing it. However, it has been made clear by more than one author that selling their freebies for profit is unacceptable. You are therefore bound, both ethically and legally, to not sell freebie items for a profit.

I don't see any gray area: if a work doesn't say "free to redistribute" or something similar, it's not! It's just that simple.