Is the Digital "real"?

To comment on the OP's original statements...

Considering SL a 'digital reality' and RL a 'physical reality' is of course completely true. Both exist in the sense that our mind, thought and spirit are attached to both worlds. Our physical bodies do not make us who we are...our conscience does. Your virtual body is being driven by you, which makes it a reality of causes and effects. No matter where you go...there you are.



However, this does not necessarily mean that--let's say--having sex with someone is Second Life is cheating. It is absolutely subjective. Yes, the metaphysical tie to reality within Second Life can be argued, but make no mistake, we can not relate physical connection between the two. But that is not where the 'cheating' accusations comes from...it is purely mental--and like I previously mentioned, our mind is just as much in SL as it is in RL. So if you form a strong bond and/or attraction with another SL citizen, this can be considered (by some) to be cheating or straying the path. Each person is different. I mean, some people don't even like when their partner looks at another person...let alone have virtual sex. It all comes down to how what you're doing will make the other person feel--if they would be hurt by it...don't do it. We don't even need to give it a title, just don't do it.

On the surface, SL is not reality. But because we are driving the avatar in a realized world of other sentient consciences...it has similar consequences. And if you really stretch your mind, you will see that really, everything about reality is reality. If it exists, it's real. Virtual realities mirror physical realities...and although our senses don't acknowledge or interpret the grid and it's inhabitants, our minds do, and this makes it real.

I have a close family in RL. My wife and I respect each other and our marriage. In 16 years we've not had a shouting match- we really click and are that close. I've never had a serious thought of looking elsewhere and neither (I guess) has she.

She is very outgoing, I am more quiet and reserved.

We've been in SL for a few weeks.
She's spent her time fine tuning her avatar, enjoys the dancing scene and draws a lot of male attention while I've taken the time working on our home. We've discussed SL dating between us and while I was apprehensive at first, I understand that's an important part of her SL experince so we've decided to branch out.

So last night was the first time I didn't work on the home and went out dancing on her invitation. She right away hooked me up with her close friend and we spent the evening doing Salsa, Tango and several slow dances. The conversation was wonderful and she prefers the constant kissing slow dance. (Me too) My wife kept her own avatar dancing solo watching and ensured our evening went well.

The experience last night was nice and became good friends with my dancing partner. Is it love on an emotional level? No. Could it become love if things continue? Perhaps. I'm not sure. But I do know that I was emotionally involved with this person while on the dance floor- and if my wife would have grabbed a hansome even respectfully agressive male avatar would be 150% fine with me.

So is love in SL real? I can see how it could happen so I say most definetly yes.

I've learned in my short time here that SL is a unique place. My wife and I would never, ever consider meeting other people in a romantic way in RL.

But all rules are broken in SL. My wife and I played Sims 2 for almost a year before coming to SL. This is not Sims 2.

Congrats

Phew. At least of my many SL worries, being humiliated in a pool of my own blue pee is not one of them.

We fall in love with the mind and personality of another person. We do not need our bodies. Unless [we] are prepared to deal with potential hurt or jealousy, it is wise not to temp fate.

That is so true. If we enjoyed the evening like last in RL would be crushed feelings, pain and a whole new "world" of hurt.

But SL turns things backwards and I felt strangely closer to my wife after logging off.

In your case, it seems everything is good and well. However, it is not so easy for other people to draw the line, or remain untempted and in control.

Becoming good friends with a SL resident is one thing, but if you find yourself becoming emotionally attached, excited, or turned on by them, you may want to ask yourself what your RL relationship is lacking.

To add my two cents worth- and not on reality or lack thereof - I can revisit that shortly. On the purpose of the thread- to me is only to instigate discussion- an exchange of views. I believe- and it is only my opinion - that the OP is wanting different views.

It is not a troll post, it is not to get down on cyber or on people who do or do not take it as real- she is merely stating her view and asking for ours. I myself often make that sort of opening because I like to bounce my views off of others- gives me something to reflect upon.

As for Reality- I agree. It is a free standing reality that does not manifest physically. No reason to think of it as more or less valid than that we see around us and physically can touch. Last night I was talking to a friend and said here we feel so much more intensely because of the nature of the thing.

Not having the visual clues we must make the words carry more of ourselves. So- if we are honest- more of us shows, more is risked and exposed. Also, those that we impact here, be it in SL or here in the forums, have our full attention- we cannot help but be "present" fully invested, at that one point.

Normally, in RL- say you are at home with your spouse and talking- you may be cooking, watching TV- not fully there. Here we are forced to focus- even when in multiple IM's - you have to focus into what u r saying and reading. So the receiver gets all the more of you. Who can resist such utter devotion?

The rapidity of our lives in SL also impacts our reaction to it. We are living at break neck speed- time for socializing, time for work and creativity- so much want and so little time. So we hurry thru until one day we realize- time is long and we don't need to rush so.

Relationships also burn so bright at times they do not often last as long. It is not always a reflection on those involved other than indirectly. It does- pardon the obvious- take time to realize this. I have been here almost two years - it is only now becoming real to me that there is no need to hurry and that what builds gradually is much more lasting than what flames suddenly- leaps high and then sputters and fails.

For myself, things aren't that deep, I was only dancing with a very nice person one eveing. But who knows what may happen if one becomes especially fond of another avatar for a period of time.

Regarding what's lacking that's easy! Romance! A spark! something out of the ordinary day to day RL routine. That's what my wife's intrest is as well.

A second life.

Amen. Totally. Hence perhaps my RL freakout when I realised that there was a nine month SL anniversary just passed. Not when I thought about it - when HE said about it.

I guess it's the thought of that time passing as every day takes me closer to it not being just SL that caused the freakout - including such thoughts as "Are we going to want to go looking for thrills on SL when we're RL?" I actually think we'll be too busy for that

Amarantham...well put. My only comment is towards your use of the 'emdash.' I love people that incorporate them into writing--it illustrates natural side thoughts effectively--however, make sure you use two(2) dashes instead of one. One dash would be a hyphen, two is an emdash--which is what you are looking for me thinks. Mixing these up can easily confuse the reader. A good example is if you had both an emdash and a hyphen in the same sentence:

* In my youth I experimented with mind-altering drugs--they were readily available--and consequently spent a lot of time painting and listening to Pink Floyd.

The above works because there is a clear distinction. However if you were to make both the hyphen and the emdash single dashes, it would be difficult to follow.


* In my youth I experimented with mind-altering drugs-they were readily available-and consequently spent a lot of time painting and listening to Pink Floyd.


I'm just having fun with ya. I use emdashes all the time...I love them. If you notice in MS Word, to create an emdash, you use two hyphens (hitting space bar after) and it will automatically create an emdash.

But that's all beside the point.

Cheers.

{see also: em dash}

/me smiles

I try Michael, but I slip up- be happy it was not Jumpmanesque

interesting Questions and answers. but if the Digital is not real should we not be able to just play SL in our heads without having to turn on a computer and log in? is this not a "real" activity?

Does our brain not interpret that was are "really" there? Do you not get annoyed when somone bumps into your avatar? If your not "really" getting bumped into why does your brain feel this intrusion into your space and set off this reaction?

Another example, when someone in SL stands right next to your AV.. like inches away... do you stand there and keep on doing whatever you were doing? or do you move away.... im betting 95% will move.. but why? they are not "really" standing just inches away ... but your brain is prosessing the Data its recieving from your eye's and it's telling you someone is violating your space.

What is Real is just your brains interpritation of your Enviroment... is it Really Hot where you are? or is it Really cold? ... its just a bunch of Data collected by nerve endings and sent to your brain for processing ... that is all "reality" is ..is the paint on the wall Really light or Really dark? ..all depends on how much light bounces off the wall.

Digital I will say though lacks 100% immersion becuase it cannot (yet) provide Data to all senses.

/me Jack's back into the net.

My Sl partner and I have been together nearly a year -it amazes us still. It works because we support each other and applaud our RL lives and loves and know that no matter how we love each other here- RL can and must exist freely as well. Some never make that distinction and live fraught with guilt. Guilt eats you. He is always there for me when ever SL throws me a curve and my poor little heart gets trampled, he picks me up and holds me close and I live again. I love him dearly for him and how much he supports and loves me. That is all w can expect and what we should always give.

llAttachToAvatar(BlondeHair)

I'm very confused by this? I don't even understand the terms.

I have a (I think it's called an 'avatar'?) that gets dressed up and goes to work in a place called 'Real Life'.

When my RL avie comes home from camping at the end of the day, I can once again go and have some fun.

The human mind has difficulty discerning and separating reality from fantasy. Memories can be false and can be manipulated. It would be difficult to draw a line in the sand and say, "This is real and this is not."

The people behind the screens are real people with real emotions, opinions and faults. What you feel is real. If it's real to you then from your perspective there is no differentiation between "RL" and "SL".

You weren't supposed to tell anyone!

Congrats!

OMG
I am crushed- I had no idea!.. All this time and you never said anything-

You're a TEACHER????

*smirk*

LOL

I strongly recommend a book called "The Singularity is Near" by Ray Kurzweil, a noted inventor, technologist and futurist. He plots out upcoming technologies and how they will turn society on it's head over the next 100 years. Virtual Reality and relationships within plays a big part in the book. While its a dry and informational read, its also exciting, and frightening.

I see that my partner has left a little thought-bomb for me to find in the form of this thread, knowing I don't usually read the forums until the weekends... may I add my own two cents?

My own thought is that the "reality" of the digital has to do with perceptual psychology, and brain chemistry. I think that in general, what we "see"... "is" - at least to the degree that we're willing to invest in it. And apparently lots of us are. Which is another aspect of it I'm still waiting for Henry James to come back and write the Principles of Virtual Psychology...

My other observation - and this is in the context of Tori's original reason for posting after she and I went to a truly unpleasant group discussion that was dominated by a few very loud squeaky wheels - is that times and venues change, but people really don't. No one should be surprised that the best online relationships develop slowly - the people behind the avatars are not biologically different for their choice of a different emotional setting. No one should be surprised that manipulative people will readily hide behind anonymity, and no one should be surprised that people will use the online setting to try to satisfy unmet emotional needs, varying from the need for friendship all the way to the need for a parent, or a mate.

Tori? What are "indicia"? Didn't we have those on our cobb salads last week? Those little green things?

I don't think going on a diet is pretending to be something you're not. If at the end of it you are thinner, then you in fact are a thinner person, not a fatter person pretending to be thinner.

For that matter, neither is plastic surgery. Once you have a nose job, you do have that new nose.

coco

Something like that

Thanks for all of the interesting responses, everyone! I'll parse through them this morning and respond more fully once I've had my caffeine du jour.