TOS Discrepency?

So we all know the TOS was updated. Now here's something I'm rather curious about... if the Lindens dont have redemption value. Is using a sploder or gambling and different then lets say playing poker with buttons, or plastic chips? I mean heck poker is a card game, and the "chips" are just means of keeping score. Here's something that made me scratch my head. This is right out of the TOS itself.

1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab.

You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$", which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right.

What do y'all think? If they say that Linden Dollars holds no monetary value, then can we go back to gambling? I'm rather confused here, someone help me out! I'd like to hear everyone's opinions here.

This again. It doesn't make any difference because L$s still can be traded for stuff of value (RL or not), which is "gambling" enough to make US credit card companies unwilling to deal with Linden Lab if it's permitted.

Also, the language about L$s having no monetary value is strictly an attempt to limit LL's liability; it probably won't actually work, if ever tested in court. It's certainly not something over which MBNA/BoA or WaMu or any of the others is gonna risk prosecution.

this isnt really any different from the last tos in this regard.
people have asked about this 'loophole' countless times in the past, and the consensus has been that it wont work. of course, nobody has tried it yet... but i dont think ll would buy it, and i KNOW the gmen wouldnt buy it.

The Lindens declared "L and Not L" and considered it good.

According to the FBI who caused them to shutdown the casinos, the L$ was real enough, thus "L". However when facing Bragg v. Linden where Bragg is saying they took his money from him, the Lindens are saying "not L".

See also Catch-22.

I had said before you can say anything you like about something. You can write all the disclaimers you want about something not having any monitary value.. it's not going to make it true cause its not. But with this said in their ToS then the $L is not of any value then they need to allow those who have such devices to use them in the game for in world items.

You cant have both sides of the fence .. Either your in the pool or not... Your getting wet or your bone dry...

If organizations and business can convert $L, linden or L to USD then the $L, Linden, or L has monitary value any way you slice the cake. That statement needs to be removed from the TOS or modified to where it makes sense.

IF the $L, Linden or L doesnt have any value then No company, organization, or individual can redeem them for USD anymore and there is no problem with the gambling devices again in SL...

So which one is it folks? I'm understandibly curious about his too!

He who controls the Linden controls the Metaverse.

i agree that it is bogus, but it is still the way it is.
ll use legal loopholes to uphold their posistion. examples are 'lindex is an exchange, residents buy L$ from eachother, not ll" "tos states L$ are merely a license and have no value".

that being said, robin linden posted a blog one day that outright stated that l$ have value, but most people didnt take notice.

in regards to gambling, the us government sees through the bs and knows L$ have value and couldnt care less what the tos says.

Do you think they'll be different opinions than the last 137 times this question was asked?

Linden dollars have value because they are, as the TOS says, a license to purchase things in-world. They can therefore be bought and sold for real money. Linden Lab itself does not pay money for them ... you do not have the right to demand LL buy back your L$ balance. But you can sell it at any time to other SL players, or buy it from them.

Playing poker for chips, where the chips are not bought for money at the start of the game or sold for money at the end of the game is not the same. That's just friends having a friendly game for no real stakes. If you pay $20 to get your chips at the beginning and then the player who has all the chips at the end gets the pot of money all the players paid to buy in, then you're gambling for money. If you play for Linden dollars which you could then sell for money, you're gambling for money.

If someone created a system of chips where people could sit down and play poker just for the fun of it, with no L$ paid to play and no L$ won at the end, that might pass. I wonder how many people would be interested in that.

Whether the company's position in the Bragg case contradicts this or not, I'll leave for the lawyers and courts to figure out. But gambling isn't coming back.

It's well past time to get over it.

Also does LL realize by putting what they did into the TOS that the major credit card companies see that, that LL could be banned from making sales on their cards?

You cannot purchase anything on a credit card that does not have some redeeming value and if you clearly post in your service agreement that your product does not have any value and is not tangable where you can touch it that it is FORBIDDEN to use the credit card to buy it.

I have checked with my card company about that and Linden Labs is not allowed to make purchases through that bank for those reasons so I had to switch to a Paypal account to use the card for here as a go-between.

Only one sentence sums this up....

I don't know what kind of dreams you have, but in my dream world, there ARE NO RULES.

Second Life was billed to me as a way to get away. Now to re-live all my real life issues.

Well you know what happens when there are too many rules imposed on the residents?

Someone goes out and creates competition for Linden Labs. You can be sure that someone is going to be springing up later down the road as a competition to them, and when that happens SL will become ghost town.

Just look at furcadia for example...

And then that competitor discovers that just like Linden Lab, they have to operate as a business in the real world. And have to impose restrictions as the laws and realities require.

not necessarily american laws though.
and it is also highly dependant upon what it is the company is aiming to achieve.

The only thing that makes gambling illegal in Sl is the ability to turn in L$ for real money. The fact that LL creates the $L is not part of that. Were LL to make it officially against the TOS to sell L$ for real money, then gambling would just be play--like playing for monopoly money and casinos would just be a fiction. All other values ---in game---have no dollar value either. It doesn't matter if we can exchange L$'s for things of value that only exist in the virtual reality or that we can buy with real money things we can use in SL whether land or objects.

The only thing that has a bearing, is the official exchanging of L$'s for real money. That is where the problems is. As soon as that happens then in come the laws rules attorneys etc and goodbye, virtual.

If you stay focused on being a game, an imaginary world for people to enjoy, and you cut out any possibility of money exiting the game "Like world of warcraft" You can do what you want pretty much, hold lotterys and such buy ins and other things and there are no laws or rules to revent it or prohibit it.

Remove the value of the $L away from being a USD conversion and life returns to normal.

When I came to SL over a year ago, Proof of your Idenity was REQUIRED to get an account, So why dont they do this again? I can tell you why, cause it was as pointless for those who defraud the system then and they will still do it now. As Silverpetdragon in game said "Lil suzzie or little billy can and will still get their parents information and defraud the check" ... So really .. whats the point there?

All I'm saying is when I came to SL, Identity was required as signup... Gambling was permitted in game... everyone was happy and the money made in gambling was spent on items in the game.. not used to cash in for money. (some probably did) but not most. I'm just tired of new rules coming out every 30 to 60 days that causes my SL business to have to try to find new ways to survive, to make its income to operate... Where is the fairness to me here? All our income was used to pay land tiers and pay staff wages. No money was transferred out of game. We even gave some out as contest prizes... Now we cannot pay our staff, we cannot offer contest prizes, and land tiers are coming up very short. We've tried everything under the blue moon to make new incomes but none of them are panning out yet....

... So tell us your secrets

I had mentioned in the forums before when the whole gambling ban was mentioned how they need to set up the flow of $L to USD to get around that gambling law and to be sure its prevented from occuring in SL.

* ONLY Registered Businesses (Verified by a state government), 501-3c Non-Profit organizations, Or government affiliates can convert any $L to USD. Residents may not convert $L to USD at anytime for any reason.

* Residents may use $L to pay one of the above 3 classified groups for land tiers.

* If land is owned by a private individual who is not classified as one of the above 3 groups, $L MAY NOT be used for payment of the land tiers. Only USD may be used to pay for lots or fees.

* Any group registered as a verified business, 501-3c non profit organization, or government affiliate, may not engage into any form of gambling activities on SL and may not receive $L from anyone who operates or owns a casino or gambling establishment.

This would get around them having to worry about in game gambling and can easily separate the business from the pleasure.

tiering down.
today my tier is 10% what it was two months ago.

i would completely cash out at first mention of something like that.
ironically, if ll had left gom as it were this wouldnt even be an issue would it?

If I was able to I would. We had to ramp up in order to make an attempt at a new source of income to pay for the fees and wages of the club I run. We had to aquire an additional 8,096sq m on the mainland in order to put up a shopping mall. If it works and rents to capacity this will generate just enough to cover our land tiers. By placing a store within the mall we hope to generate the additional amount we need at the same time.

Me and my staff set out to make a fun and entertaining complex where you could come in SL to meet new friends, kick back, and participate in fun contests that promote creativity and over all goodwill. Our ability to keep this up is rapidly diminishing as it gets harder to draw people in cause there are no contests to offer, no prizes to award, and cause no one is coming cause of that there is no one new to meet so .. well there went all the reasons to come into a club.

It's not like you can create a carwash in SL.. No cars get dust on them.. And as for services.. tried and failed.. Just look around SL since the ban.. I have noticed a 40% increase in the amount of empty lots and lot less things to do anymore for good ole fashion fun that isnt sex related.

A simple $25 USD fee at your local government office and you can get a ligitimate business license that would be more the sufficient for this purpose. If it was profitable enough on SL to do so and I needed a fast business license to transfer $L, I'd do it.

um .. no, then you destroy every other part of the SL economy, so you can have your precious unregulated casinos back.

If you want to play a game like World of Warcraft, go play World of Warcraft. Most of us enjoy the ability to buy items in-world to be able to buy the in-world currency we need to do so, and good number of us like being able to sell things and get some money back out. (or like me, like being able to sell things even though we spend more on the business than we make, because it's fun.)

This is what Second Life is. If you don't like what Second Life is, then go find something more to your liking. But don't suggest that the entire SL world should change to suit your wants at the expense of just about everybody else.

Well it's my opinion that the SL Economy has taken a serious blow after the ban. I know quite a few of the big time vendors of SL and they ALL have told me this. I also do this for fun, But I would simply be happy at a break even point where the business paid for its self. Im not looking to get rich off this.

How do you figure that there's "no contests" to offer? I play trivia contests often. Tringo is going strong. Primtionary is popular. Just to name a few. And I frequent several clubs that seem to have no trouble drawing a crowd for music and dancing.

The gambling ban affects nothing but games of chance. If your contests are skill based, they're fine. If they're games of chance, then find some that aren't.

It may have, but it will recover. Economies do that. Something changes, they lag for a while, then they adjust and things are fine.

But buying and selling is a big part of SL. Being able to buy currency when you don't earn it is a plus. Being able to sell it if you should be successful enough to have some to sell is a plus. What you're suggesting would solve your problem, maybe, but it would make SL into something very different than what it is, and take away a lot of the appeal for a great many people.

My own business isn't what you'd call a success. I spend more to rent shop space than I make. I've never turned a profit and I doubt that I will. I engage in it because it's satisfying when someone buys something I made, and it because it's fun.

But that means that my in-world activities are not going to earn me what I need to buy the various clothes, objects, gadgets and stuff that I enjoy. Being able to buy Lindens with my credit card is what keeps me from wandering around the world in a newbie skin and freebie clothes and having my "home" be in the middle of a sandbox somewhere. Do what you're suggesting and me and thousands of others are not able to buy things. Merchants won't be able to sell them, and so the entire dynamic will undergo a massive a shift that will dwarf the harm done by the gambling ban.

So I stand by what I said. If you want a game where there is no external route in or out for the in-world coin, then you can find one. But I don't, and I doubt many SL people do. I am sorry that the policy change has made your business harder to run, and I tend to agree with the people who believe LL should have somehow compensated those who'd built businesses based on gambling that became worthless in a day. But the world overall will recover from that if it hasn't already, and life will go on.

I understand how appealing it is to be able to "make money" in a virtual reality. But look at the reality. For a while it was more or less happening under the rader, but now, the fact is that SL as a Virtual Reality is going to have to join real life.

Is that what you really want? Lawyers, rules laws, and all that comes with that? IS SL just a elaborate EBAY?

Isn't getting away from the bonds and ties of RL, what Sl was about? The real world is not ready to accept a virtual currency, and LL is no where near ready or willing, to protect the residents from the onslaught of money scammers who know a good ponzi scheme when they see it.

Do away with L$ exhange to real money and then it goes back to being fun and a game and thus avoid all this boring stuff.