Would you still use SL if there wasn't an option to cash out?

I think the only way a 'no cash-out' scenario could work is if you could pay tier *and* sim purchase costs with L$ earned through sales of goods and services. Yes, it would be a forced false economy but it would work so long as the content creators and service providers are happy to 'do it for free' as the income from their creations would have to stay in SL most likely in the form of land holdings.

Not all bad, however I feel that it's fair for content creators and service providers to be able to cash out a portion of their earnings. Not just as a reward for their efforts, but as a neccesity to cover their day-to-day expenses (food, electricity, rent, software, computer, etc., etc.).

Monalisa, I understand you POV. It is gutting to see the floods of money washing through some sectors of the SL economy when your favourite content creator or service provider is struggling just to keep afloat. Realistically it would be too much of a wrench to switch the economy over now. If it had been a closed 'no cash-out' economy from the start then things would be very different and would never have seen anything near the levels of huckstering, swindling, theft and carpetbagging that have plagued SL.

As for your poll I voted 'Yes' because as a minor content creator in SL I would most likely put any in-world earnings towards land and tier provided that was an option in the economy model you have in mind.

LOL, whining that your free game isn't good enough...................

SL is not a "game", it's an entirely new part of the internet. Like in any other part of the internet (chat, forums, photo albums, blogs, file sharing, online games) there will always be people who are not willing to pay one cent for the service and use it "just for fun" (and give up on a lot of features they are forced to miss). Amazing that in SL this big part of the population seems to be hated by those who decided to pay. Why is that?

If Lindex would just disappear:

1. GOM like sites would reappear, allowing for external L$->US$ exchanges. This has been the case in the past (LL wasn't the first the one who came op with the concept, google gaming open market, for a change), but:
1a. If LL would then allow gambling again, those sites (and Linden Lab) would eventually have huge problems with paypal, CC companies etc.. LL either has to then officially prohibit L$->US$ exchanges by third parties etc. Causing a whole bees nest of complications.
1b. If LL would allow gambling again, eventually, also land renters (anshe chung e.a.) would probably run into problems as they would get into trouble with paypal etc. To the point that renting private island plots (which would only be possible to rent using RL money), would be very problematic.

2. Mainland buying would already be problematic, as land resellers would be gone already without a cashout option. Meaning LL has to return to selling individual plots to residents again. Which would be a huge strain on their resources. Land prices and tier would go up.

3. If cashout wasn't possible anywhere. A large percentage of SL businesses would not be able to keep the tier they have now. This would mean:
3a. Almost all shops, clubs, malls and commercial sims would disappear or greatly reduce in size. And casinos will *not* be coming back. (Wasn't that the intention?)
3b. LL would lose a huge amount of money, (as they're essentially a hosting company). Probably having to reduce customer service / development workforce to take into account the huge drain on resources. (They tend to invest most profits in development/CS atm), mostly stopping SL development plans/growth and reducing CS. And no, allowing tier payments with L$ to LL would NOT fix that. L$ have no value, and LL can't pay their employees, hosting partners, hardware vendors e.a. in fake money.

4. A large number of the now profitable product sellers, who use cashout to pay for the hours they spend creating the content, and sometimes actually live off of SL would have to quit running their business. This would make the only products for sale the products developed 'for fun'. Expect a huge decrease in availability and quality of items for sale.

Would I still 'play' Second Life? I would probably still build a little bit of stuff, like i did in the past in 2004, for my enjoyment. Together with the 10.000 or so creators/developers who will be left. The rest of the people, would be gone as there are no more (hq) products to buy, no more 'fun' to have (clubs/casinos gone) etc. I could probably still enjoy that place. But could you?

Thanks for all your comments. I start to realize that my initial thought was unrealistic. SL wouldn't be the same with no real money involved. So gamblers, go someplace else.

Simple answer.... HELL NO! Its the only reason I even used this thing anymore. I log in a couple of times a day check my sales and then its off the programs that really work like BattleField 2.

I think it depends upon what you mean by cash out. If I couldn't pay tier by selling my Lindens then I'd have to remodel my whole business and stop owwing more than 512M land.

If you mean stopping the ability of processing my credit so I can get money to my paypal account, then I'd still have the same business model.

Unlike other games, premium members also get very little extra for their money and putting money monthly into something without making a return just so you can build your own house & garden or a shop losing money isn't easy. we aren't all sim/mall landlords & Island owners.
I don't mind basic members who still input money to the game/platform/whatever, I have 4 basic alts & 1 premium myself), but those that refuse point blank to put a single RL cent into SL then complain they aren't happy with the rate of it's development just irk me.
It's amazing the number of people in world that beg for $50L because their not stupid enough or rich enough to put 18 cents into SL.
It's like those that complain SL is broken because they can't rez properly or everything is grey, because they are on freebie internet.
If they removed cashing out and added ability to pay tier by Lindens, all would be good except for those that draw a wage out of SL, and don't get me wrong there are many content creators that deserve to do so too. It's just the scammers I don't mind seeing the back of.
If I ever get motivated enough to finish some of my 90% finished stuff I made and market it, I would be happy to make enough to pay my tier, and see my own creations on the grid.

All very true. You get what you pay for in life, and not a penny more.

I voted yes only since I don't have anything to cash out, I don't work in SL, I buy Lindens as I need them and spend them. But having no cashout would affect all the businesses I patronize, affecting my SL experience, so my yes vote is somewhat mitigated.

In every thread discussing this, I keep seeing "You could pay tier with L$." How would Linden Lab stay in business if they were accepting payment in worthless game tokens that can't be converted to U.S. dollars? Are they going to convince their landlord, the utility companies, their stockholders, and their employees to accept worthless game tokens as payment?

The poll questions are too narrowly defined.

I would probably still be in SL but I would give up my island and wouldn't work as hard at keeping my store going. Like others, I'd cut back to only 512m of land.

To those who ask, what if LL accepted L$ for tier payments --- what use are L$ to linden lab? Their employees can't be paid in L$, the electricity bills can't be paid in L$, and they can't buy servers or pay their co-lo fees in L$. If the L$ is a worthless game token then it's a worthless game token.

Ah - Jezebella beat me to it!

-Atashi

In a recent blog post LL themselves said they could accept payment in L$ if they chose to. I think that's where that line of thinking is coming from.

Where do the "worthless game tokens" come from in the first place? $US of course. LL aren't converting income to Lindens then back to $US before entering it in their accounts software......
And believe it or not there are more $US going in than players are taking out or do some of you think otherwise, LL and SLEX can print money just by making Lindens inworld?
People cashing in keep it going, not people cashing out.
And I don't term taking money out to pay tire payments as cashing out, it's just transfering, cashing out is money taken out and spent in RL.

I answered the question straight, as asked: Yeah, I'd still be in-world, even if nobody could cash out. In fact, it was a long time after I came in-world that I spent a L$ on anything sold by anybody who might cash out. Now, at this point, I like having that stuff available to buy, and I like visiting sims that wouldn't be economically feasible without tier contributed by somebody cashing out. But if those weren't here, I'd still be in-world, and not sure I'd be much less excited about it.

But I sure would be disappointed if, as a cost of giving up cash out, we'd have to let gambling back on the grid.

I agree with Tegg,

Sorry but its true, in my case I pay my monthy premium membership as does my RL wife, between us we also pay our tier for 1/4 of a sim over all its about $100 (£60) a month.
I personally believe that as a premium member I should be able to cash out as I invest in the game, Allthough I know that a lot of non paying residents do rent etc the most part I see a lot of " I dont pay , why should I " comments.
Well as a non payer you should get certain abilities removed and the best one being no cashouts..i.e dont payin...dont cashout.

I do think that LL needs to look at thier membership plan as so far they are offering everything BUT land to free accounts, and as the free accounts can rent its does make little sense to become a full member. I can only assume that as LL wanted to "attract" more people they opened the doors...but I can only think that this is a short term stratergy and should imagine that at some point they will shut it down again to those who dont "pay to play".

So if you are a member ...... you SHOULD get rewards and i dont mean that crap idea of the lindens that a membership bennefit is a support portal... Im talking about REAL bennefits like better inventory tools, better inventory quota, being able to use higher textures by limiting non members down to 128 or 256, a REALISTIC stip end.
Even things like the upload charge.....could be higher for non members and lower for members.

Allthese sort of things would add value to being a member, while still leaving an open system to the welfare players.

I AM a content creator... and I spend hours developing stuff..... but to this date i havnt cashed out..... my monthly charges are what i can afford without the need for SL to bring me an income ... BUT I will want to cash out at some point and i think it should be available


Marty

p.s. If gambling is your thing ... then go to a website and gamble your money away, SL is for everybody... and everybody should have the ability to do as they please...... Unfortunately LL has chosen a safegaurd against fraud..BUT this doesnt stop fraudsters buying selling land to launder thier ill gotten gains.......

Hmmmm Anshe, Sarah and Desmond ...... are YOU a cartel hehehehe

This poll is pants.

Where's the "I'd quit dealing with the work and just enjoy the rest of SL without the money" option?

I said yes...

But I'm not here JUST for fun. Although, I usually AM having fun. If money wasn't an issue in SL, I would still be creating the same things, however, I probably wouldn't spend as MUCH time in-word--a legitimate profit is always nice.

That was exaclty my point. Noone talked about completely removing the cashout possibility but to make it optional.

Thre are appearently these different types of users:

1 Those that invest RL money to make RL money
2 Those that buy Lindens mostly to "have fun" in SL and don't bother about making a big buck
3 Those that neither buy nor sell Lindens but make a living in-world
4 Those that only use free stuff (like new residents, visitors)

I am still wondering about resident *percentages*. On this platform the number 4 residents are probably non-existent because you cannot even read this forum without payment info. Many are number 1 residents I think because they are most concerned about SL's future.

I am a number three resident BTW... I make money and buy stuff (camping would not be enough for me so I have jobs!) but I never changed Dollars into Lindens. I wouldn't mind not to be able to cash out - I don't intend to.

I started out somewhere between categories 2 & 4 and am now somewhere categories 1 & 3. I got lucky and make enough from my activities in SL to cover my costs and have a bit extra left over. Last year I attempted to save up for a sim but the price hikes and RL financial problems put an end to that little dream. At the moment I cash out my surpluses but if my RL situation turned around, I'd plough it back into SL in the form of greater land holdings without a second thought.

In Three years of play, i've never cashed out, Nor do i have an immediate desire to do so.
It's a nice option to have available, but Money isn't , and never has been my Reason for being in SL

Angel.

Without an option to cash out, I wouldn't be here anymore.

I would definitely have tried SL anyway; originally I didn't come here to earn money. I came here because Sociolotron became boring, as every MMORPG does at some point. I might have stayed for 6 months or a year even, but by now I'd most definitely have enough of it. There's only so much you can do here, aside from building and creating; and content creation isn't really worth doing it for the fun only, once you reached the point where 50% of your time is spent on customer service and you have to keep deadlines.

Let's face it, without the business opportunities SL is a nice way to kill some time while waiting for the next good MMORPG, but sooner or later one has enough of the outdated graphics engine, the countless bugs, the almost nonexistant customer service and the overall pointlessness of a virtual environment without any goal or reward. Money is a great reward, and earning more of the green stuff is a nice goal.

i am level 2.7.
occasionally i buy L$ if i spot a big piece of land i really need. i usually only cash out to cover tier.

I'd be here, but my activities would be severely curtailed. I wouldn't own any land beyond 512 square meters.

3 years and never cashed out. The name of the place is Second Life, not Second Job.
I am not here for the money.

The whole idea of cashing out came about because some folks couldn't be happy with the
stipend they got.

Rox