How strict should people be about reporting trademark infringement?

Just a point of order for distinction...

You don't "DMCA" trademark infringement. Trademarks are a COMPLETELY different area of IP law from copyright, with a different process for handling them.

That, and you don't have a legal trademark if you've never registered it.

Thanks for the clarification.

So, what would be the proper terminology so I do not error again?

Well, I don't think that's quite true really. I mean, Disney have no official area in Second Life, so they wouldn't have technically lost any money by someone selling Pooh in Second Life. Certainly the existing copyright laws only apply to the owner of the creation but I don't see that it's so blindingly obvious that they SHOULDN'T also apply to others who lost as a result. Generally it is not good for society to reward crime in any way.



No, that's not fair, why should an honest person be asked to adapt to a criminal?

Ok, then. So you would not be reporting for the benefit of Disney.. it would be so Joe Avatarmaker may or may not make more sells if the pirate avatar maker is wiped from the grid. So it is all for the benefit of Joe Avatarmaker. Joe needs to get cracking on the emails then.



Well, then it sounds like you should think of contacting your representatives, congressmen and the like and see if you can get copyright laws changed. It sounds like you have a way bigger problem then what Joe Avatarmaker is losing in sells. You have a conflict with legal standards.



Because the honest person has no legal recourse as it stands right now to be compensated.

So.. it is all in Joe Avatarmaker's hands.
1. Email Disney if they are inclined.
2. AR the shop if they are inclined.
3. Step up their game in advertising to pick up sells.

Do you think I should contact Disney everytime I see a pirated DVD of Little Mermaid being sold on the street? That is taking money away from the honest video dealer who sells the real deal. Does your sense of activism extend to the real world too? If so.. do you report this stuff in RL?

A question further.. do you have any
1.MP3's from a CD you don't own?
2. Software that was pirated?
3. Copies of any DVD movies?
4. avi's of movies you did not buy?

If so you are no better then the person making the Pooh avatars. the only difference is he is turning a buck or two a week, but you still took money from the rightful copyright owner by having this stuff mentioned above.

If you were caught downloading the MP3's on limewire would you feel you should pay not only the record company that owns the rights but also every record store that sells the CD?

I just skimmed over the thread and didn't see anyone point it out (otherwise sorry for repeating).

Trademark infringement doesn't need to be reported by the owner of the trademark, *anyone* can report it to LL and as soon as LL learns of the infringement it needs to take the content down or be potentially liable if it doesn't.

The DMCA safe harbour for service providers only applies to copyright, not trademarks.

If LL doesn't act on a report then you could contact the trademark owner and let them know LL isn't removing the content.

Price of doing business. Or Joe can hire someone to do it for him. maybe that can be a way for noobs to earn money. But any talk of the average citizen having to do this for the common good of content creators is a bit socialstic to me.

Well, it can be for the good of people as well.

Case in point: Maker A makes Harry Potter Magic Wands, maker B makes un-branded wands. Maker A sells more because of the trademark, makes more money, can expand more, gets more motivation, gets better. Maker B gets nothing, figures he/she's unwanted, gives up. So do all the other non-violating makers of magic wands, so if you want one, it's a Harry Potter one or nothing.

6 months on, Warner contact Linden Lab and every Harry Potter Magic Wand in the game is deleted. But because they were allowed to become dominant.. now SL has no wands at all.

That could have been avoided if the non-violating makers hadn't been pushed out.

What is the proper term to use then, please?

This is hyperbole. Please name one item that is completely gone from SL or is in danger of being completely gone due to your scenario.

myob

that's usually the least stressful way to approach a matter that you are not getting paid to worry about.

If the public wants to buy the knockoffs over "home made" items, than that's the way it is. Personally, I don't buy RL branded items in SL, not even if they were sold by the real companies themselves. But that's just survival of the fittest business. If consumers want the imitations, then that's what they will buy. It's not my job to Police the world for content creators. I don't do it in RL, I won't do it here.

I don't go down Canal Street on Saturdays taking down the names of businesses selling knockoffs and then calling the cops.

It is an intersting question, as most of your are, but the answer for me is simple. No. I'm nt going to do it. It's not my job, mt duty, or my civic responsibility.

/agreed.

Yumi, It was a good question and I think I get what you are doing here.. keeping it interesting.

I think you are out of gas on your debate though when you go into the SL will be rid of wands forever stand lol.

Thanks for the fun of the debate.

No, I'm not trolling or "keeping it interesting" - I'm just surprised to see there's so little support for the idea, in a community that's so strongly against content theft in other contexts. (Plus I was keen to hear from others, the truth is that I was planning to make this a poll but fell into the bug of backing out of the poll setup screen.)

Another point that worries me is the statement that, if trademark infringement was reported to the Lindens, they would just "rename the content" - that doesn't do anything to rectify the problem of the competitor gaining an advantage. Why not sell your avatar, as a Bugs Bunny avatar, if that will get you extra sales and all that you'll have to do if caught is change it to Bud Bunny? At least reporting it to the trademark holder has the (albeit very small) possibility that they'll be sued.

(And no, that's not trying to be viciously evil, it's just saying that I don't want to be in the position of "if I don't violate trademarks, I'm failing to do something that on balance is a good idea".)

Yumi, content theft is taken more seriously because in SL there is such a small amount of money made by most creators that it is a watching each others backs situation. Most can't afford lawyers or be able to police the grid on their own. We help each other in those cases.

Some of it turns into witch hunts and can get out of hand fast. Most recently:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/13405-blah-blah-fashionista-hair-dramaz.html

And as was mentioned IP rights and copyrights are not the same. So it is two different types of things, one we can effect through blog posts, third party forum posts, contacting the original creator so they can file a DMCA, etc and one that the best we can do is send a email to effect the cause. And the email will likely fall on deaf ears because as you said, Disney does not have a official outpost in Second Life.

So. Just because the same people who get outraged over content theft in SL do not get enraged over Pooh avatars does not make them hypocritical. It is not the same thing.

I'm a fan of a rock band so I made myself a shirt to wear.

I don't have a license to use this logo so I would never sell this shirt in my shop. If I find out that an SL shirt maker does have such a license I might stop wearing my shirt.
If a rival shirt maker starts selling unauthorized shirts like this I'm not going to worry about it eating into my profits because it probably won't. But I understand how makers of kids' stuff might feel differently.
Since I believe copyright infringement is a civil, not a criminal, matter I don't feel any responsibility to report it in sl, even for the sake of other merchants who might feel it damages their businesses. They will have to decide for themselves what they want to do.

Personally I think that if any large company was concerned about it, they would be in SL taking action. Big companies go after things that eat at their bottom line. They dont waste money on whether they are losing 2 dollars a day to some guy selling bugs bunny avatars. As a matter of fact, their lack of action may not but from ignorance but from the fact that they get visibility in a medium without having to pay a dime. Brand identity is more valuable to a large company than the actual loss of a few hundred lindens.

I believe that if they companies were concerned they would take action. I feel it is none of my biz to inform them of something their fleet of lawyers and clerks work at every day in the realms they find significant.

I also think that there is ALOT of petty "tattling" going on which is much more destructive than much of the so called "thievery." People in RL make exact knock offs all the time of clothing and furniture and more and as long as they dont profess to BE gucci, no one cares. Why in SL do folks feel that they have exclusive rights to every dang red dress with a bow on the butt and that anyone who makes one even similar is stealing. I believe it is because of their own greed, not a concern for the greater good. And to me that greed and ill will is the real issue.

Short answer, its not "people's" issue, its up to the owner of the image/whatever.

I have experience of 2 rl brands that were made aware of this in SL. One hired a very expensive investigative firm to look at who is ripping what of their properties off in SL. Then they decided it wasnt a big issue either in $ or more importantly in damage to their brand.

The other just laughed and commented that since they had given up going after the RL manufacturers of their particular brand of shoe in China, it wasnt really an issue in SL.

The only situation im aware of where lawyers were employed was when a brand established a showcase in SL, became aware that someones had been copying their items prior to their arrival. In that case they spoke to all of the content creators, persuaded several to change their designs without recourse to legal action, and ended up hiring one of the others to work on their project!

Zog

You make one very broad assumption. And that is the Trademarked version will always be better liked than the 'proprietary' version. This is not always so, and in fact I think well known things like "bugs bunny" are so tired that they have lost most of their appeal. The Rabbit AVs you often see in SL are far superior IMHO.

I dare say trademarked stuff is rare, not only because of the questionable legal status, but because there are far better proprietary alternatives in SL. Trademark does not mean 'best'.

I do take some sort of personal responsibility to report crimes that I see.

When it comes to possible IP infringement, though, I don't think I can just know it when I see it. I can guess that it's highly unlikely that Disney licensed a certain shop in SL to sell Mickey Mouse products. However, it is possible to get licenses to use others' IP. I've done it before (not from Disney).

So when it comes to my good-citizen responsibilities, reporting potential IP violations just isn't part of it. Unless I have special knowledge of how a particular piece of IP is licensed, I just don't have enough information on which to be making a report.

There are two groups of people who might have an incentive to make such reports, however:

1. Yumi identified one group, and that is a direct competitor. When it comes to money, one does have a bit of an incentive to make sure competitors are playing honestly.

2. In this particular case, I think that any content creator who wants to see more robust DMCA enforcement in SL has an incentive to report potential IP infringements to entities with the financial muscle to pursue them. Why? If an entity with the clout of a Disney, for example, were to be come interested, it would not be satisfied with the Linden Lab excuse of "we can't monitor the content on our servers." Disney has the financial ability to respond to Linden Lab, "Well, let's let a court of law decide that." You will see Linden Lab scramble to add new IP protections to SL.

In the second case, it wouldn't necessarily be effective to report violations one-at-a-time. One might spend a month listing all the possible infringements on Disney products in SL, and report them at once. By showing that multiple residents are easily doing it in SL, Disney is more likely to see it's quarrel to be with Linden Lab, rather than the individual infringers.

Otherwise, stopping small-time, rogue offenders wouldn't be on Disney's radar. It's Whack-a-Mole. Winning lawsuits against these people is a waste, and judgments will never be collected to cover legal expenses. Disney only gets involved if it sees a larger target, like Linden Lab.

I find the idea of competitors making rabbit avs being compensated if a bugs bunny rippoff is taken out because of a spurious claim for loss of earnings odd and dangerous. To me that would make any such claim no better than the infringer you'd be trying to make money from the proceeds they made? think thats a little crazy

Sooo, its not a 'suck up the the corps thing' but a 'screw the competition using a third party' thing. I see.

For my own part I am not going to help either one unless paid. Not my job to level the playing field for either corporations or avatar makers, nor is it my job to help corporations protect their trademark or avatar makers to sell product. Those are for the legal department and sales department, repsectively, and bring in a paycheck.

There are plenty of people selling star wars stuff, star trek stuff, Dr who, Red Dwarf stuff and not a mention of trademarks and Royalties. The only place I went to that mentioned it is a one place that is selling Dr Who and Red Dwarf stuff. They just say if you have a problem just tell me I will stop, if I remember correctly.

So, I doubt that the owners of these copyrights care if someone makes virtual simulation of their stuff and sells them for virtual money in a virtual world!

If they did they would have stopped it years ago. The only violations are when you copy someone’s objects using copybots and sell them. Then you are violating the in house rules. But people have been sued in the real world for copying products and selling them in SL. SL is still the only source of income for some people, so it is a loss of Real Life money if people steal your stuff in SL duplicate it and sell it.

I would report in house infringements in house but not to RL.

But, making a Star Trek Enterprise in SL and selling it is not taking money away from Paramount, unless they are selling them in SL which I do not think they are, the same can be said of Lucas Films. (I do not think that George is in SL in any degree. His ranch is about 20 minutes from where I live, I have been on it. But he has no presence in SL that I am aware of. I think he is missing a potential source of money and promotion. Just babbling sorry.)

(The problem is that this virtual money costs real money and can be exchanged for real money. So it means that people could be making real money on copyright infringements done in a virtual world!)

It does leave a bit to think about, does it not?

necrothreadia

Are Zombies Trademarked?

I have a feeling the only ones that report it are the ones who have something to gain (or at least they hope to gain something) be it less competition, or whatnot

hubby used to create and sell in SL super hero costumes, he was not selling a lot, but did sell some

Then LL sent him an email saying he had to stop, that it was reported as a violation to a copyright

lo and behold, others still sell the exact same super hero costumes, and use the super hero names, that he was selling....

so was it the comic book company that complained, or someone else creating the costumes and did not want competition?