Interview with Bragg's lawyer

Not agreeing with Bragg's side of the story does not mean I am "ignorant". Of course Bragg's spin will paint him in the best possible, least devious light. Thats how the system works.

I didnt agree with OJ's side of his story either.

Do you think Bragg started the auctions and won the sims by accident?

think the best comparison is with hacker and crackers

crackers hack the system and alter the front page of a site but leave a notice to the admin on how they got it and to fix the hole, hell, even some leave contact info if they need more help solving it

hackers just get in to create havok, deleting and downloading info or god knows what like massive ddos attacks

hackers get jailed
think it`s the closest we can get as both are virtual propperty with "no value"

don`t see why some need to discuss while it`s stupidly simple...
atleast the money he "stole" isn`t going into his own pockets but to lawyers, least abit of comfort to know

as we don`t know the system, he might have done that while the regions were in "limbo" and he initiated it
who knows what other holes he found and abused...

One snake is better than another, now?

from what i understand he did initiate the auctions. he would manually type in the aution id into the browser, land on the bid page (which wasnt open), and make a bid. the time on the auction would then start counting down and he would eventually win that auction without the auction ever having been announced.

btw, i believe crackers are the 'bad guys', and hackers are the 'good guys'

Which is what I also heard. He had to know damn well no one ever authorized him to start LL sim auctions. Just becuase you can do something doesnt make it right.

Does that mean the hunt is still on for the "Real" Sim Stealer?

"If I Stole Them, Here's How I Did It", by Bragg, coming soon to a Borders near you?

I am constantly confused by this situation.


What he did was obviously shady. Even his side of the story of what he did with the sims and the bidding is a little shady.

Why is it so surprizing he was banned?

Everyone who gets banend loses their "stuff". Thats the deal.

As someone noted above, just because you can do something doesn't make it right. LL had the power to lock Bragg out and deprive him of access to everything. Whether it was "right" for LL to do this is the question that seems to divide this thread.

As Bragg has requested a jury trial, it is good that we posters aren't going to be in that jury as we'd never get out of deliberation.

People seem to want to argue that if you get banned you should be able to keep/ be paid for your stuff.

I do not see where Bragg felt this was the situation that existed.

That really changes the way thing work in virtual world if it becomes that way.


He obviously did something worth have been banned over. However people "explain" it. Its definitely in the logical things to get banned for.

So the whole argument to me seems to be--

Should your Virtual assets be sold off and a pro-rated amount get returned to you if you are banned?

I think it comes down to what is 'ownership' ... as intended by LL and understood by it's customers.

If we own our (virtual!) land, they have no right to do sell our property without our consent.

Actually, those caught out by landbots do get sympathy on the forums but you are right there are those with sympathy with LL on this issue.

However, fundamentally in both cases something was available to buy from a publically accessible place!



My understanding is that Bragg received e-mails confirming the sale, and that money was taken from his account. At this point in the eyes of the law, and also in the eyes of LL own inworld policy, the sale is deemed to have completed.

Matthew

What would happen if you had paid for web hosting services from a 2D web host, and then decided to start exploiting their security holes to get extra service for less than normal rates?

Would they give you your money back when they booted you? OR would they keep it and boot you?

He broke the "law" of SL and had to face the penalty, asset forfeiture. It happens all the time in RL.

In the UK, if you had paid in advance for services, and they terminated the service early for whatever reason, you would be entitled to a pro-rata refund.

Matthew

Of course in SL -

the pricing stucture is such that the month to month costs are paid on a month to month basis. (Tier fees)

While aquisition costs are paid up front and tradable as long as you retain the service. (Land purchases/ Sales)

The "law" of SL, is that if something is marked for sale and someone else manages to click on buy, the sale is legitimate - even if it was never advertised, was in an enclosed building with private/keep out signs all over it, and required the buyer to cam through half a sim of ban lines and security orbs to get it.

It is somewhat hypocritical of LL to cry foul when someone does in the 2D web something which LL regards as perfectly legitimate in the 3D web!

Matthew

True - but premier fees can be paid for more than a month in advance.

You can also have a US$ credit on your account from which tier fees can be deducted.

If you had such a credit with a 2D Web hosting provider you would be entitled to a refund of such credit if they terminated the service for whatever reason.



True - however, most 2D web hosting providers do not charge an upfront acquisition cost plus a monthly service cost (not least of all as it avoids getting into the situation LL has got itself into over what that initial cost was for). Those that do, justify this, as the initial cost being your purchase of a rack unit, and then the monthly cost is the service cost of hosting this rack unit. As such, if they terminated the contract for whatever reason, you would expect them to either give you your rack unit, buy it back from you (adjusted for depreciation), or give you the option to resell it.

Matthew

Surely you know the government always has different rules for itself.

Ordinarily you can resell it - to other SL customers.

The wrinkle being Bragg forfeited his good standing by exploiting security deficiencies to get extra access (land) at an extreme discount.

Since LL and Bragg are both in the US, UK law has no bearing nor should it.

True - but if we take the 2D Web Hosting example.

If Bragg paid up front for a rack unit, and then paid monthly for hosting it, but then had the hosting service terminated due to a contract breach (e.g. exploiting a security hole to get a second rack unit at a discount), he would still be entitled to assert ownership over the original rack unit etc. especially if all the advertising blurb etc. had consistently stated that the up front fee was for *owning* the rack unit outright!

Matthew

But wasnt their language specific in the TOS saying that he WOULDNT own any physical property and that if he violeted the rules, he would lose what virtual property he had purchased.

The whole TOS wasnt thrown out by this court. Just the provisions that would have stopped Bragg from having any claim at all. As far as I can tell.

I was responding to Collete's hypothetical question:

"What would happen if you had paid for web hosting services from a 2D web host, and then decided to start exploiting their security holes to get extra service for less than normal rates? Would they give you your money back when they booted you?"

The answer being that if they were in the UK and if I'd paid in advance or had credit on my account, then yes, they would give me my money back when they booted me

To be honest, I suspect that the same would be the case in the US too, but I don't know US consumer rights, so didn't want to make that claim.

Matthew