Don't get scammed by Everlasting Estates

Not for nothing, but... Everlasting Estates sounds like somewhere that you go to get buried after you die.

ROFL....you're right!!!

Yes you can! They will deduct the amount of payment until the issue is resolved. HOWEVER, paypal has a huge list of things YOU need to do to settle the dispute. So contact them. ; ) good luck to you.

I hope you get good results through Paypal; I have used their dispute mechanism once (I bought something from Etsy and the seller sent me something completely different from what I ordered, then never answered a single message or email when I tried to contact her) and was told at the end of the three or four week review process that they only give refunds for items bought on eBay. Which is the kind of thing you'd think they'd put on right on the dispute resolution page to save a person from wasting their time.

Hm.

I'm not sure what "the rules" are, but I think there are wider rules about chargebacks than just for ebay. I could be wrong, though. Certainly, most of the incidents I remember are from the "virtual items = nearly unconditional refund" age.

There has been a lot of upheaval recently. New rules went into effect for credit and transaction businesses about a month ago, and in a nutshell, they aren't allowed to keep nickel and diming us to death with a lot of the old stupid tricks: ultra sensitive late charge timing, ridiculous ballooning rates, quickie rules changes &c. So they are coming up with new fees, new charges and new stupid tricks.

I would expect this to influence paypal's chargeback policies too, somehow, though I think some regional and state laws influence it also ("cooldown periods" and so forth for some items, in some regions for example). How it will pan out, I don't know.

One final comment ~ as with all forum commentary, one side of the story doesn't equal the truth of the matter, and the court of public opinion isn't generally fair, either (the side with the most forum friends "wins" every time).

As such, I wish all parties the very best of luck, and hope they all find justice... whatever that may be.

Yeah, I filed a dispute, Everafter Estates esculated it to a claim, it is in the review process right now. I had called about sending in all my emails, copies of note cards etc, for them to see i had given notice, but was advised they didn't need or want it. I was told by the customer service person, that these things are usually decided in the sellers favor, so I am not holding my breath.

But what I think it still all boils down to, i abandoned the land back to them, after giving notice, and they took the money anyway (for the next month) After advising them of the mistake, as I assumed it was at first, after a few not so nice conversations, it was clear they had no intention of returning the money.

Sad as this is to say, I try to make a few bucks in SL, but if I ever get that greedy and dishonest, i hope i have the good sense to see I wasn't that good of a business person and I need to give it up.

Desmond, you're mixing up the two types of disputes you can file on a PayPal transaction. PayPal has their own dispute process, which includes any type of payment you make using PP. This dispute process is strictly between you, PayPal and the seller. You have 45 days to file the dispute with PayPal.

A chargeback is when you contact your credit card company to dispute the transaction. In that case, you as the buyer and your credit card company are sided against the seller and PayPal. (PayPal is technically considered the seller, since the credit card pays them before the money goes to the actual seller. They have to take the side of the seller, although if the seller is out of line, they will just accept the chargeback and reverse the funds.) You do have six months to file a chargeback with your credit card, normally. Can be more or less depending on the card issuer.

As far as digital goods, PayPal has changed their process on them since I worked there. It used to be that the buyer really had no recourse with virtual items. If you didn't get it and used PP and filed a dispute, it automatically was dropped. Now, they will normally just issue you a refund for filing a dispute for virtual goods, up to a certain amount. I do not know what the limit is, and I'm quite sure it's not public knowledge (they were changing this when I left.) Also, it becomes not so automatic if a buyer has multiple disputes with virtual goods, because they are sensitive to the possibility of a buyer opening disputes for every virtual item they buy.

Now, as far as the subscription goes, the OP is screwed because of that. A subscription is started by the buyer, not the seller. A buyer agrees to the terms and clicks a button telling him so. It also tells him to cancel it when he's ready to, or he will be liable for any future payments. PayPal will always rule that way in a subscription or billing agreement. So if you enter into a billing agreement (which is what you use if you use PayPal on your SL account as payment info on file) or a subscription, make sure to cancel it if you're through using the service.

The thing is, though, that they did not "take the money" away from you. The way the subscription works, PayPal pays them automatically. The seller has nothing to do with it. A seller can never pull money from your PP account. There is no way for them to do that. In this case, your account was set up to pay them monthly, and it did. It's the buyer's responsibility to cancel the subscription, and it does tell you that when you make the original subscription payment.

That being said, I think the estate in question are not too professional. If it were me, I would take care of you and not pull the "we didn't get an email in the proper form" type shit.

Hey, this is really good information.

I am mixing things up badly, because quite frankly, it got mixed up on me... once Paypal took over Verisign for my RL biz credit card processing, I didn't know who was doing what any more. My old Verisign credit card processing became something called "Payflow Link" or some such ~ it basically works the same way as it always did, but seems a lot more 'kewl' and a lot less stuffily financial than it used to be back in the Verisign days. I still have separate merchant account services (wheee!) so the whole thing is a huge confusing mess. What I do know is that I can take VISA/MC/AMEX for my RL biz, and the money actually shows up after a few days (after lotsa fees subtracted, of course).

Your explanations were really nicely clear, though. I'm glad to say I've never had any paypal or credit card dispute whatsoever in 9 years of RL biz, so I have only heard things second hand. Of course my RL biz is boring; if I were running a nightclub or something I bet they deal with charge issues all the time. And I can sure see why estates would set up subscriptions, too... wow, nothing would ever be their fault if they do so! Although the same case could be made for $L in advance, I guess.

Thanks, I was very tired last night and was hoping I made some semblance of sense.

That's great you haven't had any troubles. Most people don't, to be honest. We only hear the horror stories on paypaysucks.com, etc. Chargebacks really suck, because the credit card companies will side with the buyer when any sane person can see they are full of it. PayPal hates them as much as the seller does. And PayPal does have seller protection, but there are certain conditions you have to fulfill to be eligible and no one seems to want to read them. They just assume that PayPal will cover them no matter what. Oh, and in that vein, virtual goods are not included in seller protection, because they will require delivery confirmation which is obviously not possible with a virtual item.

Hey Crighton, great info, here is what i ran into with these folks, they have their own website under the name of "Gamerzfix" to set up your rental you go there, and that is where i set up the subscription thru pay pal, now i do remember seeing a cancel in that website. But then the strangest thing, I went back later on 2 occasions, to get back into the website, and it said my password was wrong, I hit the button to have it mailed to me, and both times it was not. I use 3 passwords on line, and I tried all of them, and I keep a list of them as well, thinking about this now it seems kinda fishy too.

So after the payment on Aug 19th was made, I tried my best to figure out a way to cancel it on pay pal, couldn't figure it out, so I called them. The customer service person showed me how to "drill" down and find the cancel feature. He did say, that both parties can cancel a subscription. So I am only going by what they told me on that one.

Am not sure what will come of the claim, I think I explained my situation, and hopefully if this seller has a history of doing this, the outcome will be in my favor. I just am floored by their actions, I never expected them with all of their years in SL, to have been so unethical, but then perhaps the state of the economy everyone is getting a bit desperate, but that is no excuse either for dishonest business practices.

Yeah....from what you said about their website, they seem pretty shady. And sellers CAN cancel a subscription, but it is ultimately the buyer's responsibility to do that. The reason PP takes that route? They have no way to verify that you and the seller did agree for them to cancel it for you. Emails can be altered and are not proof of anything. Thus it is the buyer's responsibility to cancel the thing.

One other thing...even when I worked at PayPal, I hated the way they had the subscription cancel button somewhat hidden. I always brought up that it should be more visible, and was told they were working on it. I more or less believe that, knowing that the code of the PP website is a massive bowl of spaghetti that needs to be completely redone at this point, but that ain't happenin' anytime soon.

You have a contract with an estate owner to rent part of their sim.
Under terms of that contract, you cancel the agreement and are
not supposed to be billed for the next month.
You are billed anyway.
Billing method is Paypal.
You have contacted the estate owner and they do not respond.

I assume you live in the US.
You need to understand that the estate owner is conducting
business in your state (over the Internet) and in California.

The very first step is to contact Paypal and file a dispute.
If they do not return your money, then you do the following.

I am referring to "the company" or "estate owner" here without
repeating their name. You need to use their name in the complaints.
(Their resident name, group name, names from their web site, and URL.)
I would copy their web page and also look up who the domain is registered to.

If you are not comfortable writing these kinds of letters,
ask someone for help, or hire a paralegal to assist you.

1. Contact the Attorney General of your state and advise them
that the company is doing business over the net.
You will file a complaint with your state's AG.

2. Contact the Attorney General of California and advise them
that the company is doing business over the net using a service
(Linden Lab) based out in San Francisco. Be clear to them that
Linden Lab is *not* a "hosting provider" and is *not* an ISP,
but is rather the content provider (of the land), the broker,
the advertiser, and the billing agent, and that they are
refusing to help you.
You will file a complaint with the California AG.

3. You need to file two more complaints with government agencies,
explaining that (a) estate owner is operating a business over
the internet and transferring funds using PayPal
and (b) is committing wire fraud: taking unauthorized money
from your (eg. bank) account on Paypal. Explain that Linden
Lab is providing the service, and is the actual content provider,
the broker, the advertising service, and the billing agent,
not an ISP, and that they are refusing to help you.
The agencies to contact are the Federal Trade Commission
and the Federal Communications Commission.

4. File a police report in your local jurisdiction for fraud
and wire theft. Give all the details above. You don't know the
name of the thief, but both Paypal and Linden Lab do know the
name of the person. The police will extract this information
as part of their investigation.

5. File a complaint with the FBI, as this is an interstate
wire fraud case. Give them the same all the same info that
you gave your local police.

I am not a lawyer; this is just what I would do for starters.

You may wish to bring a civil action against various parties.
But if someone is fraudulently taking money from your bank
account, that is several federal crimes. I'd let the government
do the hard part of the investigation and stop the thieves.
Once that's over, you will know the identity of the estate owner
and can take more action. Such as trying to get your money back.

If the person is located outside of the US, you're probably
just out of luck, practically. But you need a lawyer to advise
you about many options at that point. The parties involved are:
you, Paypal, estate owner, and Linden Labs.

Do not write to the estate owner threatening to call the government
or the police on them. You would probably be committing the crime
of Extortion by doing so.

Write back and let us know how it goes, what the agencies and
the police say, and whether they take much interest.
It's hard to get them worked up over a $150 case that they
cannot solve. You may mention to them that you think this
is happening many times every day on Second Life with a
variety of different estate owners and their customers.

Zenda, I am sorry this happened to you. There are a lot of greedy people out there and sometimes we get caught by them, they ruin the experience for the rest of us. Sounds like you are doing the right things and you got a lot of good advise here. I hope it all turns out well.

.d

THIS

It is not the estate's fault nor in their power to manage your Paypal subscriptions. Paypal took your money because you did not tell Paypal to stop taking your money.

[ETA]
This is one of the big reasons why it is not allowed to give out names with complaints.

You are accusing the wrong people.

I don't agree, these people deserve to be exposed publicly. Yes, zenda could have canceled the payment in PayPal. However their refusal to fix the mistake with a simple refund is unconscionable.

.d

Not could have.
SHOULD have.

As in it is the ONLY WAY to stop the transaction. The accused person is powerless to stop it.

I agree, but a refund is easy and the right thing to do.

Thanks everyone,
Feldspar: I have a brother that's an attorney and a cousin in our local police dept, i think i may make a few phone calls, I know I can live thru a $150 loss, but now I am a bit worried that they may be doing this to others.

Durbor, as always Your so kind, thank You for Your support, I am restored to knowing there are good people here, by so many that have responded. Thank You!

Rhonda, well I did try to cancel the subscription, but on the pay pal site, there is no way to find a cancellation tab, or button to do so. I had to call customer service, after this happened, to ask them if they would cancel it, when the rep showed me how to drill down and find the section of the web site to do it. I had written to the owner, and two of her managers by note card, IM, and by e-mail to their web site, and asked what i needed to do to cancel my payments, to release the land, etc, as per their usual there was no reply back. So in these communications I asked them not to take another payment, and I was advised by pay pal that the seller can cancel the payment. But either way, I regarded the situation as a "mistake" and asked for a refund, and that so far has not occurred.

I'll keep everyone informed as to what I find out, and if by chance they do refund, I will gladly post that her as well.