Bay City - Is it a FAIL?

I dunno, I don't think it would work at all if you had to beg a Linden to change the media stream every time you wanted to do anything. Maybe they could set up a group though and put the land in it so normal people could make the necessary changes. Dunno. It's probably just my anti-authority nature, but I think it's important to find a solution that doesn't rely on Linden Lab putting in any effort.

I feel untill LL steps up and becomes a responsible landlord the areas on the mainland will deteriorate. Its seemed so far all they are interested in is recieving the income from auctions and tier. I feel it is LL's responsibilty to take part, perhaps the new continent is a start, I dont know.

Originally LL wished the land owners to govern the areas, it hasnt happened, except for some small groups, its been over 5 years now since land could be bought (leased) from LL. I call LL the ultimate fail to their customers.

My feeling is that SL thought they were creating a community by providing the "bones." But without the people and without a sense of community...it wont work. I have been to both Bay City and Nautilus several times just trying to find whatever it is that is so attractive there....and i never can. There is nothing welcoming, nothing that I cant find elsewhere and nothing that I want. So, I dont go back. Successful communities in SL take much work and effort to build the connections between people, shopkeepers, visitors etc. Without that its just not going to work.

I agree, they can take a page out of Desmond's book. Ok, looks like they need chapters instead.

Stuff like th' above is someting I've been working with 'em for a while now. There's a number of things that come up, too. Why use the LL infrastructure for an event when you want to drive traffic to your store, etc. It's a difficult issue all around.

Echoing Desmond and Jojogirl:

Bay City is just a "place". It is no better and no worse than any other "place" on the grid. It has some advantages; it has some disadvantages. However, even beyond the silliness of land speculators not realizing that ANY place can be "Bay City" (and indeed, more have been made, though with different themes, and not all by LL), there is the underlying issue of "community". Places are popular and "successful" (in the sense that they are active and vibrant) because of the people in them, not the land. What makes one place more popular and, hence, more valuable, is building a community of people and managing it well.

That's why LL-created "places" like Bay City, Nautilus, etc will never be as good, popular, or successful as resident-managed estates, like the Isle of Wyrms or Caledon; because they are owned and managed by Governor Linden, who isn't really even a person. Not to mention the fact that LL doesn't exactly have the best track record in creating and managing communities; it's simply not their long suit.

Normally, I would say that LL should never have gotten into the business of competing with its customers by trying to create such places, but it is quite apparent that it is not really a problem worth worrying over.

In short, Daryth, Desmond, et al; keep doing what you are doing. You're safe.

Tal...i said that exact thing when Bay City was created...that SL should not be in the biz of doing something that was already being done by residents very successfully. In my mind it would fail...AND it was direct competition. I have sims where we have an awesome group of folks who live and work and play there and also have RL causes that they work to educate folks on. That community goal drives the content, but it is the people who make it work. I recently have even stepped back in my role as "driver" because it was time to shift to a more resident run community rather than owner run...and its working! So Bay City may be able to achieve some of that, but it will take time and dedicated folks to "drive" for awhile first.

I really don't see that happening. As inconsistent as LL is, one thing they are consistent with is not giving one resident more power than another. Even if its something as mundane as changing the radio station...

Yes, but Bay City is not just empty of people, but of builds, too. And in most sims empty is fine: it just looks "spacious." But in an urban-themed sim, vacant lots make the whole place look less than prosperous. There are enough Linden builds to be able to tell it's supposed to be a city, but only just enough to look like a failing city.

So maybe, instead of trying to adjust the economics so real occupants will build, it could help to just erect "pretend" virtual structures wherever the landowners have left a parcel vacant. I don't know if the moles have enough spare prims left over to do it by linking the structures to root prims on Linden property (probably not), or if it would need a change to be able to use the vacant parcels' own prims regardless of land settings for build, entry, and auto-return.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

It was reasonable for LL to take the position that collecting the auction receipts ended their responsibility toward both BC and NC. The fact that they've gone beyond this by volunteering the time of an employee (Blondin) to listen to us and help with projects and problems, is enormously to their credit.

But...the responsibility for 'community creation' rests with us, the Residents.

And I think the barrier-to-entry argument, as an explanation of why these two developments seem to be the domain of indifferent and inattentive land-flippers, is spot-on.

The only way to get around this---the $50/square meter pricing, which effectively limits the number of engaged residents---is to increase the supply.

That is, I think that the only way LL-created developments will be acclaimed 'successes' is if they are far larger than either BC or NC----so large that flippers give up the prospect of cornering the parcel-market before they begin.

If speculators see that 1,500 parcels (about three times the number in NC) will be up for sale in the new LL-created Blankety-Blank Double-Prim 1024m Continent, then they will realize that investing the equivalent of US$200 each (which was near the NC auction-price average), in the hopes that there will be enough demand for them to profit on each purchase, simply won't work.

There just aren't enough people interested in paying US$200 per 1024m parcel to justify such an investment.

Potential speculators will look at all the yellow at NC and BC and decide 'I'm not going to find the buyers at US$200 apiece, so I won't bid anywhere near that much at the auction of this new continent's parcels.'

Thus, auction prices are likely to level down to a more affordable US$60 or 70 or so----meaning a continent in which more people will actually 'live' and operate their businesses.

Is it really that empty? I flew around a bit today and it seemed very densely built out. Way more dense than any normal place on mainland.

All this is absolutely true. It WAS direct competition, and it's absolutely understandable that estate owners wouldn't be thrilled by it.

It's also a fact that many well-run estates do a superb job of creating communities.

But you can't get away from the fact that many people who would otherwise choose to invest non-virtual money in SL, would NOT do so if their only option was a private estate. No matter how amazing or creative or well-run, there's always the chance that the estate owner will leave...and then the whole thing vanishes.

Some people will always be attracted to the stability of Mainland.

And the themed areas (such as BC or NC) can give such people the stability they crave, along with a taste of the unified environments to be found in the best private estates.

good point about the mainland factor...

I sort of knew what the results would be when I read the title,and it is a fail.Perhaps not in the short term for LL,cash wise,but in the overall impact on SL. I posted shortly after it opened and called it bland,I still hold that view.
It sort of reminds me of the new towns they set up in the UK after the 2ND WW.They bus the people in and leave them to their own devises,net result a big empty soulless place that takes generations to get that "Lived in feel".
Perhaps they should let the boys in and let them graffiti it up ,and give a few hobos and tramps permission to sleep on the benches!!
In short it needs some oomph!!

My feeling is that SL thrives best with a mix of options: estates, almost-anything-goes Mainland, and themed Mainland.

(But naturally any of us with a financial investment in one is going to be looking with a jaundiced eye at the others....human nature being what it is. ^_^)

Gee, it's only been a couple weeks since I've been there, and where I was looking it seemed as if at least a third of the parcels were empty of anything but For Sale signs or thinly veiled grief builds. I certainly grant that even at that, it's more dense than the average region, but certainly nowhere near the density of "urban" Estate sims.

That may have more to do with it being mainland and automatically collecting tier.

Any well marketed estate with empty parcels is advertising and pushing to fill the vacancies.

Where as mainland has a magic auto-collecting rental boxes of sorts... tier. And no managers under pressure to fill the space.

This, this, and this. And it is not just a Bay City issue.

When I first heard about the Bay city project, I envisioned a big-city a'la Chicago of the mid century. A destination with a nightlife, fascinating stores and exhibits, you name it. A place were the best and brightest would come together buoyed by the idea of being able to do "thick" builds on double-prim plots. I looked forward exploring this place, finding the cool, funky stores one might find in Lloyd or other sims.

A lot of that dream died on the first day of the auctions, as the bids went up and up, putting modest-size plots into full island region territory. The plots I was interested in went to a flipper, who them flipped them a couple more times. They now house an empty lot and a burning car, respectively.

I did manage to finally score a plot in the sim I wanted, late in the game. A modest one, bigger than what I looked at before, but with no connecting road. I spent a lot of time making it look like it might belong in that world I was sold, only to have vacant lots surround me. Right now I'm probably in my best position, neighbor-wise, with a shoe store next door, a vacant lot behind me, and a park-decorated for sale plot across the way.

But the people who come to my store -- a store featuring toys and novelties for both kids and adults -- aren't encouraged to do much shopping in the area. There isn't a lot of there there. So much possibility and promise, but such a barrier to entry. Who is going to want to spend L$150,000 for the 1024m plot behind me, knowing that there not exactly going to get traffic from the vacant lot and for-sale land decorated as an Asian temple across the road? There's little there to draw people to explore, so my customers come and shop, then TP out.

There have been other issues as well. While there is a small number of people who are passionate about the area, we've also had to deal with a lot of in-fighting that takes us away from doing fun events and instead leaves us worn out simply from running in place. This also does little to help the area.

I wish I could help you find the beauty. I feel there is some to be had. the block of buildings that Barnesworth Anubis & Co did is amazing. Cubey Terra and Akhnetan Grommet's stores -- satellites that they are -- are great, and so on. but it is all few and far between in a city that had the cards stacked against it from the start, that everyone seems to want to see fail just so they can gloat, that has been largely populated by people looking for their own personal "get rich quick in SL real estate" scheme.

So it's a bit frustrating to be a bay Citizen sometimes, ya know? Those of us who are there really are trying, but we've got a rather large stone to roll up the hill.

EDIT: FWIW, I added to and re-edited this post for my blog, http://marianne.secondlifekid.com/2009/03/20/the-loneliness-that-is-bay-city/

I hear you mari...one thing that i think makes it tough is the sheer size of bay city. its hard to have a core or real center...if you send me some lms in world ill come check out the good parts tho. LOL

I do think both Bay City and Nautilus lack impetus, did they ever do anything with the theatre in Bay City? I'm sure I read there were plans to start using it.

I don't see land prices as an issue, if Bay City and Nautilus were draws the land speculators would rent at a premium and people would pay the prices because their products would be being showcased, it's the lack of promotion from LL that disappoints me most about these sims, people paid a lot of money for the potential there.

There were plans, and the land was even set for specific group use and everything. Then... nothing. I used it last week, though not with any official backing.



LL has been reluctant to do much of that sort of promotion within the city areas, because then people would cry favoritism. :-/

Bay City is a failure in the same way the mainland is a failure. Any overcrowded region is going to fail because SL can't stream and render that much content fast enough. Although maybe some people aren't as sensitive to performance issues as me.

I see the mainland as a liability for SL. It's one of the reasons why I'd never recommend SL to a friend. I just know they'd sign up and go visit the mainland and

But maybe they'll visit http://slurl.com/secondlife/tigger/100/190/22/ or http://slurl.com/secondlife/clinker/20/240/44/ or http://slurl.com/secondlife/noonkkot/19/60/52/ ?

Yeah! It's not so much land flipping as trophy flipping.
The prob is that there are too many trophies together in the one place to give them a true trophy cachet.




That would have been good for microparcels

LL did create a resident-member group for regatta management of parcels cut out of the Blake Sea sims.