Live modeling is cheating?

Hi I've recieved this note from a friend inworld:

A couple things. Apparently, Linden Labs has decided that live models are considered "cheating the system" to boost parcel traffic, like camping and bots, regardless of the fact that you are LIVE people. A designer recently had her account suspended for use of live models in her store, and the only way around it is for me to create a separate parcel for you guys to stand on. And the fact is, that the traffic boost is a small part of why I wanted live models. I'm not too keen on getting suspended, so for now, until perhaps they change the guidelines for allowing staff to "legally" be on commercial land for extended periods of time, I will need to cease the use of live models.


is that true?

Not exactly. There are provisions in the account pages now to register that type of account as a 'scripted agent'. Later those accounts wont count towards the traffic for the parcel so they can't game the system.

I really don't believe those modelling could be really live, who would spend all their time in SL stood in a shop on a pose ball? Most people camp like that when they are away from their computer.

How many 'live models' did your friend have in her store for it to be considered that bad?

well but wat if the models use their own ao or model huds and not a poseball?

I don't know how many she has but that depends from the hours, usually 4 in a day

You can have models in your store, just have them register as scripted agents on the account pages.

This all sounds a bit strange to me as if they were live and not on pose balls etc then I don't think they would have been banned at all as they would look like normal shoppers.

Or... you can advertise in other venues besides "live models". There are many fashion shows/blogs/magazines that boost revenue without depending on traffic. I gave up on traffic years ago and my revenue has not significantly decreased.

and what if the models in question are definitely NOT bots, but real people who do that as a job during part of their time?

exactly that's what I ment!

Wait. What about people who are not 'scripted agents' or throwaway alts, but who use that account for their Second Life, or whose ONLY Second Life account that is? Working in stores modeling gowns, on a turntable or not, used to be a valid, PG way for women to earn money.

THIS STINKS, on behalf of all those women. And I don't even hire models...

Mel, how sexist can you get? You need to have a chat with Scylla - or maybe not.

Pep (Has modelled in his time . . . )

wow...im surprised at this..i actually like seeing clothes on live models, they never look the same as they do in heavily edited photos some stores use.

We have a rather extended thread on it already: Are your human employees registered? (/327/d0/351489/1.html).

---

The store owner here freely admits that traffic is the reason to use "human controlled avies" rather than bots (if there was a more important fringe benefit she'd have no issue cutting a new parcel) so getting rid of the camping pads is a positive thing.

We used to have thousands of people doing exactly what you said: standing around and getting paid for it. Then bots came along and people replaced their camping pads with skyboxes or potholes.

Now bots are getting replaced with humans on camping pads again and calling them "models" is somehow supposed to make them completely different from campers .

Take a look at Hexed: everything she sells has a demo available (along with a C/NT or NC/T option).

Live models and bot models are perfectly legitimate as long as they are either registered as scripted agents for the time they are modelling, which anyone can do in their account page, or on land that isn't set to show in search (e.g. a 16m piece cut for each one and not set to show in search). In the case of the models registering, they still add to the traffic count, and they'll continue to do so until LL change their system so that they don't, which may not be far away. The probl;em with that for a store owner is that s/he has no way of knowing if the models are registered while they are modelling and s/he has to trust that they'll do it each time.

The whole thing about live employees has become a complete shambles, and it's all so that LL can produce figures that they know misrepresent the reality.

Alatiel Malies:
The account that your friend referred to wasn't suspended. She received a warning of suspension, which is still a penalty that remains on her record.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said "standing around and getting paid."

Models do more than that in most places. As I've mentioned already, they also greet and answer customer questions (usually more to greeting and pointing product locations. They cannot do these things from a separate parcel. Standing them on 16m would also be ridiculous.)

Other places have very knowledgeable customer service staff, that not only answer any question about the products and offer any help they can (including resizing), but take suggestions as well. They also often chat a bit or remind customers of store policy.

Still other places need staff security, dancers, managers, etc. etc. What is with the paranoia in so many things lately? People are trying to make some actual profit so they can pay their tier.

I remember - and it was not so long ago - when camping was also viable. Real people filled the camping spots. Is there not a way to tell a bot from a live person? And why should a live person at the keyboard have to register anywhere, for any length of time, as a 'scripted agent?'

You've mixed camping into things, but it is a separate topic. These (live models, and other examples given above) are people who are doing a job. It is NOT the same as an army of bots floating 100 feet in the air (or even on the ground.) It is not an army of 'zombies' standing and staring into space.

I love the look of the live models. I have not yet seen a place that has more than a few, either. Usually it's one per department. In the case of a women's clothing shop, or a shape shop, there might be a few more, since people want to see *different* products, not only one.

I do not wish to try on a demo of an outfit in the middle of the store. I've seen people strip nude to use those 'try on' scripted demos, then wander around naked, thinking it's what they are supposed to be doing. That's not the type of shopping atmosphere I want. I also do not LIKE to bloat my inventory with demos.

But here is the bottom line. Why, for once, doesn't Linden Lab *ask the residents* "what the residents want?" Did anyone pitch a hissy about in-store models? If not, then who cares?

I dont think anybody can expect that your live models will register as bots, as far as i am concerned this is complete bullshit.

if, a live model, who is not afk should be registered as a bot, then also all hosts, dancers, shop assistants.. heck all personell should be registered as a bot.

I agree that a model should do more then just standing there and not responding, u can let your model walk through the shop as an shop assistent. in my view its completely fair that you gain traffic from that. you also have to pay the models, there also needs to be a gain from that. but i guess they rather have u paying for advertising to get higher in line of search results.

Do you have anything to show that's not what they were doing?

If they spend most of their time standing there looking pretty then they're referred to as "models" which is the equivalent of a RL mannequin.
If they spend most of their time helping and assisting customers then they'd be referred to as "sales staff" instead.

It's exactly the same thing when the *intent* is to increase traffic which is stated right there in the OP.

Push LL to add an LSL function to check someone's status so whatever camping system the store uses to track their time can warn the "model" when they didn't set their status properly and the entire problem goes away.

People have been screaming about traffic getting gamed for years so they did in fact listen.

so If the live models stand in the store or they go around in the store greeting and helping costumers they are perfectly legitimate to do that? so this is not cosidered cheatin even if they are in the store logged in in a clock system that automatically pays them when the clock off and finished working?

I mean if they help people moving in the store is it fine?

then why all the PR people of every land don't have to register as a scripter agent?

Why is your tone so confrontational? Chill.

But to reply to that - first, I already did, above. Proof they are at the computer is that they speak and answer questions. Describing where something is doesn't make them a customer service rep in my book. Also, models are not supposed to speak, by definition. That does not make them bots.



Whose definition is this? Who says "most" of their time must be spent doing X, instead of Y. What if it's a live model who only answers things when asked, or greets every so often. What then? Is there some ratio? Why the sudden raid on live models. I mean...again...why this paranoia?



Huh?



I'd rather not, since I have no problem with this in the first place. But that sounds better than what is being proposed at the moment. However, what if someone has to (gasp) leave their computer for a few minutes when that warning comes up? Real life takes precedence. I think you are over simplifying this whole thing. Once again this is a heavy handed, wrong headed solution to a tiny problem.



Again, you are bringing some ancillary topic in with emotional language. This is NOT gaming traffic! Having a staff of employees is NOT gaming traffic. They are way overreacting. Also, listening means to the solution as well - novel idea, that?

I wonder lately if LL wants anyone to actually make a go of business in Second Life.

Not all campers were zombies either, a good many people here in the forums said they weren't AFK while they used to camp but were busy sorting their inventory, IM'ing, working on a script, talking with other people so they were "live" too but that doesn't make them "staff" by any stretch. They were there solely because the parcel owner wanted to hike up their traffic in most cases.

If someone wants to decorate their store with avie mannequins then that's fine, but then their traffic shouldn't count regardless of whether they're bot controlled or human controlled (and regardless of whether that human is AFK or actually at the keyboard).

We can disagree on whether avie mannequins or sales staff offer any benefit but why should their traffic count for anything? If the primary purpose is decoration then it doesn't really matter that they don't generate traffic, does it? Or if the primary purpose is helping customers then that isn't impacted in any way if the staff's traffic doesn't count either.

"Store model" basically means "mannequin" to me. Someone who's standing somewhere on a pose ball looking pretty may or may not add flair to the store but if they're a "model" then the avie's purpose is to just *be* there.

If a governance Linden bothered to tp over to a store and sees 4 avie mannequins standing on their pose stands being mute then it's only reasonable for them to assume that that's all they're supposed to be doing and that the store owner is simply gaming traffic.

Completely different scenario if they tp over and there's someone standing near the entrance with a "XXX's Helper" title and greeting them.

I really don't see why there should be any outrage over the first example, and if they were to - at some point - take action on the second then I'd only object if there was no way for store owners to make sure their staff is complying and for suspending them rather than just issuing a warning.

"Model" implies *something* that's passive and doesn't interact, "staff" implies *someone* that's interactive. Which fits with Harry's statement that a host is perfectly alright but a model isn't because you wouldn't expect a host to just be passive and restricted to a poseball; as well as Frontier pointing out that subdiving the parcel is acceptable as well. They're seeing "models" as "mannequins", not as "staff". And I would agree: if they're staff call them staff and don't make them play mannequin because people aren't going to assume that something that is usually a model bot most everywhere else is a live person they can turn to with questions.

"Model/mannequin" and "staff" aren't interchangeable words. Each has a very different purpose.

There's no actual evidence of that though.

Everything so far has been about *models* which are really just glorified campers. Until there's an occurance where LL has a problem with a *staff* member who's interactive and not standing on a *modelling* stand at any time this is about LL taking a stand against human/bot camping.

The sim will log you off if you're set to "Away" for an extended time so that would be limited to half an hour to an hour depending on your "Away" time.

But Kitty you keep stating these things as if they are facts. They are not, until it is in writing somewhere as official policy. THEN that's the definition we all have to go by.

You also keep using a lawyer's trick: switch rhetoric and see if someone notices. Well, I notice.

You keep switching 'camping' for 'modeling.' It is not the same thing. SL models can actually get paid a lot of money. It requires an investment into quality avatar accoutrements such as hair, skin, jewelry, shoes...You seem to be talking solely about 'mannequins' who spin on pedestals within stores, but the category is much wider than that, and stores employ all types.

People sitting on a chair, no matter what their av is, what they look like, who are not representing that store but who are being paid just to sit on that chair, are campers. Please, don't intermingle the two species.

Also, you seem a bit obsessed (I said seem, because maybe you are just a detail type. Fine, I tend to be, myself) with 'traffic.' Traffic could be done away with just as well, and then no one would have to pull their hair out wondering who's live, who's a bot, who is 'doing something' and what constitutes value.

You asked why employees should count toward traffic. My answer: Because it is meaningless either way.

well, reading your words....then if I put the staff tag on a girl that is standing in my store, wearing one of my outfits and that very same girls says "hello mr/mrs YYY welcome to XX store" this is ok?, so she's modeling but she has the staff tag and says hello then she can stay in the store without registering as a sctripted av?

this sounds all very strange and weird to me.

Live models usually greets people that come in the store and some of them aren't sit on a pose ball but using their own ao so they are like any normal costumer that visits the store.

Does this mean that if I put on my "I like pie" tag and go and sit (on a poseball disguised as a sofa) in the Cartel Hangout and sort my inventory until some n00b turns up, at which point I say "hello" and he/she/it asks me for money so I ask if they have change of a $L1,000 note and then they swear at me and ask me if they can have a copy of my clothes so I give them my "Really Terrible Looking Free Stuff" folder rather than my "Stops You Looking Like A N00b" folder, that I am doing something illegal, like camping, or hosting, or modelling, or mannequinning?

Pep (Does it make a difference if other group members turn up as well?)

They are the same thing in practice.

Tp to Edelweiss and there will be 6ish models modelling her dresses (unless she took them down recently). They've never said a word any time I've been there in the past 2 years, they don't move around, they just "are". Does it matter whether they're bot controlled or human controlled?

Maybe there is a minority of stores that uses actual, true staff for modelling but personally every store I've been to if they have staff then they'll be near the landing point *not* on a modelling stand. And if they have models then those are completely silent, unmoving and posed on a pose ball they never get off of.

Which - again - fits with the ticket's statements that just parcelling off the stands where the models stand is an acceptable solution when they're not actually bots.

Camping is more broad to me personally: any incentive to make someone spend more time on your parcel that they otherwise wouldn't if the reward wasn't present *and* where the desire to provide that incentive vanishes if there isn't a traffic reward.

In this specific case the store owner could have kept her models and simply parcelled off their stands but the fact that she got rid of them entirely because she'd loose the traffic advantage is what makes it camping to me.

How does LL tell the difference between a bot sitting on a pose stand and a user sitting on a pose stand?

Yes, I know there are stores where the models aren't AFK all the time. I've talked to some, but if Nosey Linden comes by when they're AFK how do they tell?

The only correct thing about that statement is the "to me" bit. Everything else is wrong. You seem to be ignoring what people are saying, both in this thread and the other.

Store models are not what you describe. Some are, no doubt, but people here are talking about active models and other types of staff. Perhaps you'd like to address what people are saying instead of sticking to the same little bit over and over again.