Let's say I own a few large sims and I'm making about 2000 USD a month off tier. Will Linden Lab be reporting my finances to the government, or is this tax free money come cash out time?
Thanks,
LL
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Is Second Life a tax shelter? |
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Lee Lindman
Singularity Evangelist
Join date: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 26
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12-08-2007 19:37
Let's say I own a few large sims and I'm making about 2000 USD a month off tier. Will Linden Lab be reporting my finances to the government, or is this tax free money come cash out time?
Thanks, LL |
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Dina Vanalten
Registered User
Join date: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 268
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12-08-2007 19:41
Depends where you live and if you are required to declare your income for tax purposes. As for LL reporting you, don't know but suspect that happens only in the US if at all.
As a thought, if you are using your computer to earn money, you should be able to declare the computer, electricity you use, etc., as expenses against income. |
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Conan Godwin
In ur base kilin ur d00ds
Join date: 2 Aug 2006
Posts: 3,676
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12-08-2007 19:41
I doubt LL will be reporting your income. However, the IRS do random audits of people and will definitely start to question it if they see a regular income that was not declared. I should imagine most countries' tax collectors do the same. In the US tax evasion is an extremely serious offence too.
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hateful much? dude, that was low. die. . |
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Alicia Sautereau
if (!social) hide;
Join date: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,125
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12-08-2007 19:41
tax free untill the taxman busts you when seeing a steady unexplainable monthly income
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Taylor Heron
Registered User
Join date: 1 Feb 2007
Posts: 57
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Ummm...
12-08-2007 19:51
How exactly would LL know your taxable income is $2000/month from your activities here? And how exactly would you be relieved from lawfully reporting your income to the IRS?
You ARE filing your quarterly reports, right? Just wondering. |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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12-08-2007 20:11
I doubt it. You Can place money in to it, to withdraw later, perhaps at a gain, or Loss, But as yet, the money is still Taxable when you receive it. Unlike RSP's, 401(K)s or Charities, there is no Deduction or Differment(sp?) available any more than if you put the money under your matress.
Some day, perhaps after test cases are Made with the IRS, Inland Revenue, or Revenue Canada there Might be something in Future, But i think we are a long way off from that. Angel. |
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Joy Iddinja
Registered User
Join date: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 344
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12-08-2007 20:23
Actually I know a bit about this. For US tax purposes, the money made in SL is considered monopoly money UNTIL it is processsed into REAL money, via Paypal or check. If you keep it in the game it isn't taxed. For this reason I tend to reinvest my Lindens and only take out pocket money through Paypal.
Let's say I own a few large sims and I'm making about 2000 USD a month off tier. Will Linden Lab be reporting my finances to the government, or is this tax free money come cash out time? Thanks, LL |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-08-2007 21:11
Actually I know a bit about this. For US tax purposes, the money made in SL is considered monopoly money UNTIL it is processsed into REAL money, via Paypal or check. What is the situation with money that's cashed out into real money, but the real money is left in the person's SL account to use to pay future tier fees? |
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
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12-08-2007 21:25
What is the situation with money that's cashed out into real money, but the real money is left in the person's SL account to use to pay future tier fees? If it is your account it is real money the same as if it was in a rl bank. _____________________
"If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life." - Henry David Thoreau
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Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
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12-08-2007 21:31
I doubt it. You Can place money in to it, to withdraw later, perhaps at a gain, or Loss, But as yet, the money is still Taxable when you receive it. Unlike RSP's, 401(K)s or Charities, there is no Deduction or Differment(sp?) available any more than if you put the money under your matress. Some day, perhaps after test cases are Made with the IRS, Inland Revenue, or Revenue Canada there Might be something in Future, But i think we are a long way off from that. Angel. We have already had someone in Canada audited by Rev Canada over his expense claims in SL Angelique and he passed. He has a company in SL that hasn't made much money yet but has had large expenses. I spoke with him recently and he gave me some advice as to how to structure my tax return (note: we both have incorporated businesses). He used to be an auditor with Rev Can so he was very helpful to me though I'm still ready for my own audit if that is the way it goes. And congrats to the OP for making 2000USD over Tier!!! Wish I knew how to do that! (Oh right Eolus One! - yeah you better pay taxes, that's pretty high profile!) |
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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12-08-2007 21:33
If it is your account it is real money the same as if it was in a rl bank. How about cases where several residents get together to share land, and use L$ to pay their share of the fee? For example, four people buy an island together; 3 out of those 4 people pay the equivalent of $73/month in L$ to the fourth person, who is the actual island owner. They then pay the tier from the US$ account, not making any profit. I would assume there is some kind of tax exception for this kind of thing. Certainly in real life, if you go out to a restaurant together to eat, and split the bill, the person who collects the money together and hands it all to the waiter doesn't have to pay tax on the "income" they received at the moment they picked the money up; that would be ridiculous ![]() |
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Susie Boffin
Certified Nutcase
Join date: 15 Sep 2004
Posts: 2,151
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12-08-2007 21:40
How about cases where several residents get together to share land, and use L$ to pay their share of the fee? For example, four people buy an island together; 3 out of those 4 people pay the equivalent of $73/month in L$ to the fourth person, who is the actual island owner. They then pay the tier from the US$ account, not making any profit. I would assume there is some kind of tax exception for this kind of thing. Certainly in real life, if you go out to a restaurant together to eat, and split the bill, the person who collects the money together and hands it all to the waiter doesn't have to pay tax on the "income" they received at the moment they picked the money up; that would be ridiculous ![]() I don't think that the tax collectors care about what you do with your Linden dollars. It's when you cash them in for first life dollars is when they care even if you loose your shirt in SL. If you made real life money in SL it is subject to taxes. I know that in the USA all income is subject to taxes no matter how you earn it. Even drug dealers are subject to income tax laws. _____________________
"If you see a man approaching you with the obvious intent of doing you good, you should run for your life." - Henry David Thoreau
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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12-08-2007 21:48
The IRS tends to get very cranky when you hide money from them. Nobody likes a cranky IRS agent, they have the power to do bad things.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laundering_Money _____________________
![]() http://slurl.com/secondlife/TheBotanicalGardens/207/30/420/ |
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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12-08-2007 21:59
Actually I know a bit about this. For US tax purposes, the money made in SL is considered monopoly money UNTIL it is processsed into REAL money, via Paypal or check. If you keep it in the game it isn't taxed. For this reason I tend to reinvest my Lindens and only take out pocket money through Paypal. Where exactly do you get this information? From IRS Pub 17: "Bartering is an exchange of property or services. You must include in your income, at the time received, the fair market value of property or services you receive in bartering." It goes on to give an example of a barter club in which "credit units" are used to track your account, saying "You must include in your income the value of the credit units that are added to your account, even though you may not actually receive good or services ... until a later tax year." It's conceivable that the IRS has decided not to actively pursue SL businesses at this time. They may even have issued some non-binding rulings. But as far as I know, there haven't been any official, binding rulings that support the monopoly money viewpoint. If there have been, please provide some details and a citation. |
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Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
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12-08-2007 22:08
The State I'm in sez as long as I'm making under a certain amount/month, it's considered a "hobby" and not "income".
HEH! I could always be like the waitresses at the restaurant where I'm currently working & claim that tips aren't taxable income. Oh yea, when I leave there in a few weeks, I'll be dropping an email to the IRS. ![]() _____________________
really pissy & mean right now and NOT happy with Life.
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JayDee Unknown
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 175
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12-08-2007 22:09
LL still claims $L is fictional. I am not so sure how this TOS snip would hold up in court though. As more of these virtual economies get going the more the IRS is going to be interested.
1.4 Second Life "currency" is a limited license right available for purchase or free distribution at Linden Lab's discretion, and is not redeemable for monetary value from Linden Lab. You acknowledge that the Service presently includes a component of in-world fictional currency ("Currency" or "Linden Dollars" or "L$" , which constitutes a limited license right to use a feature of our product when, as, and if allowed by Linden Lab. Linden Lab may charge fees for the right to use Linden Dollars, or may distribute Linden Dollars without charge, in its sole discretion. Regardless of terminology used, Linden Dollars represent a limited license right governed solely under the terms of this Agreement, and are not redeemable for any sum of money or monetary value from Linden Lab at any time. You agree that Linden Lab has the absolute right to manage, regulate, control, modify and/or eliminate such Currency as it sees fit in its sole discretion, in any general or specific case, and that Linden Lab will have no liability to you based on its exercise of such right. _____________________
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Farallon Greyskin
Cranky Seal
Join date: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 491
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12-08-2007 22:24
If you have a paypal account, notice that you cannot withdraw mofe than 500 USD a month without signing up for a buisness account, you then have to give your SSN and all your info and yes they tell the IRS.
I don't know for sure, haven;t looked it up, but I believe that SL would be required to do the same for amounts over 500 a month, atleast in the US. |
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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12-08-2007 22:24
How about cases where several residents get together to share land, and use L$ to pay their share of the fee? For example, four people buy an island together; 3 out of those 4 people pay the equivalent of $73/month in L$ to the fourth person, who is the actual island owner. They then pay the tier from the US$ account, not making any profit. I would assume there is some kind of tax exception for this kind of thing. If it's all passthrough, with no profit and no intent to make a profit, then it's not income, and you don't need to worry about it. |
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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12-08-2007 22:44
LL still claims $L is fictional. I am not so sure how this TOS snip would hold up in court though. As more of these virtual economies get going the more the IRS is going to be interested. As has been said many times before, LL's description isn't that relevant to the tax consequences. |
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JayDee Unknown
Registered User
Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 175
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12-08-2007 23:03
As has been said many times before, LL's description isn't that relevant to the tax consequences. Well the original post was asking if they reported $L income from how I read it. If they stand by their TOS then they would not. Then he asked if it was tax free after cashing out. That is now outside SL and a different matter. I have no idea if they are required to report to the IRS or not but I do believe you are required to report any earnings. At least here in the USA on the federal tax return. I do know bank accounts are watched and any deposits over $10,000USD are flagged. I heard that might even drop to less than 10K. Would be wise to just report it and pay it. Not worth the risk IMO. _____________________
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Kidd Krasner
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,938
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12-09-2007 00:01
The State I'm in sez as long as I'm making under a certain amount/month, it's considered a "hobby" and not "income". HEH! I could always be like the waitresses at the restaurant where I'm currently working & claim that tips aren't taxable income. As far as the IRS is concerned, hobby income is still income. In fact, it's worse, because it's harder to deduct things for a hobby. People receiving tips regularly are required to report tips to their employer in any month that they receive more than $20 in tips. But even if it's less than $20 in a month, they still need to be reported to the IRS as income, just not to their employer (the difference being the social security tax implications). |
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Angelique LaFollette
Registered User
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1,595
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12-09-2007 00:32
We have already had someone in Canada audited by Rev Canada over his expense claims in SL Angelique and he passed. He has a company in SL that hasn't made much money yet but has had large expenses. I spoke with him recently and he gave me some advice as to how to structure my tax return (note: we both have incorporated businesses). He used to be an auditor with Rev Can so he was very helpful to me though I'm still ready for my own audit if that is the way it goes. And congrats to the OP for making 2000USD over Tier!!! Wish I knew how to do that! (Oh right Eolus One! - yeah you better pay taxes, that's pretty high profile!) That's Excellent to Know, The various tax Rulings are beginning to come in, But my Understanding of the term "Tax Shelter" is a program, or investment of some sort where already aquired monies can be stored for a Term to Differ, Tax payment to a later time when perhaps you have made less money, so, when the Monies in the shelter are withdrawn, the Tax Burden is lower. What you described is Claiming a deduction based upon a Business Loss. The Only Real issue here is whether revenue Canada could be convinced that a Business Loss in SL is a legitimate Write Off. It seems that they agree under the correct circumstances it Is. The new Cyber Economy Has opened up a Lot of questions, and it's going to take time for the various Taxation authorities to come up with policies, and Stratagies to Deal with it. Angel. |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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12-09-2007 02:07
There is an avatar called Tax Anderton who gives out tax advice, I'm not sure whether there's a fee for this advice.
Now in the UK the hints I've read are that SL income falls under the capital gains tax, rather than income tax bracket. Where I do get confused though is whether taxes in general apply when you have money in your Second Life account in dollars or whether it only applies when you process your credit. I mean as it sits in your account, you have actually sold your L$ for real money. |
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Jezebella Desmoulins
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 561
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12-09-2007 06:12
As far as the IRS is concerned, hobby income is still income. In fact, it's worse, because it's harder to deduct things for a hobby. People receiving tips regularly are required to report tips to their employer in any month that they receive more than $20 in tips. But even if it's less than $20 in a month, they still need to be reported to the IRS as income, just not to their employer (the difference being the social security tax implications). And you can only report "hobby" income for a couple years in a row before the IRS will expect you to start treating it as business income. Anything over $500 a year is liable to be scrutinized closely because that's the cutoff point at which you're expected to pay self-employment tax and make quarterly estimated payments. |
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2k Suisei
Registered User
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 2,150
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12-09-2007 06:40
Let's say I own a few large sims and I'm making about 2000 USD a month off tier. Will Linden Lab be reporting my finances to the government, or is this tax free money come cash out time? Thanks, LL I don't know what the current situation is. But things change. Tomorrow LL could be ordered to give the details of anybody that has earned above a specified amount of L$. People need to ask themselves if they're deliberately avoiding the taxman. If the answer is "yes" then the taxman will have ways of finding you. Be warned - he's watching you!!! ![]() |