YABT - Yet Another Bot Thread

Okay, as the poll about search showed, more people are using Search Places, then Search All, at least from the people using this forum and caring to vote.

Now I am a business owner, one that recently (yesterday) moved his store to a new parcel. And I want people to be able to find me. People that are looking for low prim furniture, must be able to find me easily. Now do not come with "if your stuff is good enough" or with "mouth to mouth", this one is about people who actually search for stuff, not people already knowing me.

Here is the deal: I am competing with a handful of serious businesses, and a lot of not so serious ones. The serious ones are using every way possible to get noticed, the not so serious just hope someone finds them. What are my options:

PICKS
Make sure I have enough Picks, so I show up in Search All. Well that part is covered, my old store is still at 3, my new one at 5 and rising. Within a few days I guess my old store is gone from Search and I should be back on 3.

TRAFFIC
Make sure I have enough traffic, so I do show up in Search Places. The only way to do that, is using bots. 2 or 3 bots get me in the top 10, a few more can get me higher. To get on 1, I would have to use 30 bots or so, which would probably get me kicked out of the estate
Another option is adding a few camping devices. Costs more then bots but might be friendlier.

CLASSIFIED
Pay a few thousand linden per week for a classified. That one I did try and brought me hardly any new customers. The add ran a few weeks (6 if I remember well) and the teleports from it were just sad. So that is hardly an option.

Now as you see, my main worry is about wether to bring some bots online. Some find that unethical, so be it. Most of the userbase just sees my shop sooner, and will consider buying something from me instead of a competitor they see sooner.

I want to get my stuff under the attention of people, I do need the traffic in order to do so. Search All is covered, Search Places is not.

Your opinions?

Honestly? Ignore it. If you have a niche product, exploit the niche. Otherwise, don't worry about it unless you plan to make a RL living out of it. BTW: What poll?

The poll: /327/d3/268669/1.html

And I do not plan to ignore it, because I want at least to try if I can make money out of it. Of course, I do love creating things (else I would not have started it anyway) but I want to try the business side as well. Anf in my creations could bring in a few hundred bucks a month, I would be stupid to walk away from it too
My main goal is not making money from SL, but I do want to sell what I created. If it brings in money, that would be great, if it does not I am not sad either. But I do want to try.

You're already actively abusing the new search for your own gain, why suddenly pretend you need pause to game the old one?

You answered yourself in your own post anyway: unethical behaviour yields more money which is your primary motivator so go ahead and be as immoral and unethical as you can be regarding your competition and reap the rewards.

Thanks for the link. No offense, you know. I just meant that even though a lot of forum people still use Places, I'd bet that a large portion of the population use All, simply because it's similar to Google. The forum people are a very very small percentage of the SL population! The only reason that I suggested that you ignore Places was that regardless of traffic, my sales seem to be relatively steady month in and month out. Whether I camp myself, an alt, or don't camp anyone, sales are steady. Maybe I'm jaded, but I totally disregard all traffic statistics nowadays, even if I DO use Places, which is rare.

[Editing to assume that ALL users disregard traffic statistics. I use sales, not traffic, to track sales.]

@Kitty: Well done, quite the reaction I would have expected. No relevant remarks, just some sneers. Now I could reply that the only thing I took care of, is that people can find what they are looking for, but you would not care anyway as you are to full of yourself about this topic. So I will refrain.

@Oryx: No offence taken, your contribution is what I am looking for (especially this second post). Now I don't know how well your Search results are in the Search All, you do have a good niche market though. So it might just be that you are easy to find, I am not sure. Will try it this weekend, to see the difference between your line of business and mine. Maybe it indeed is not that important.

The thing is, that the keywords I need to be found by, are quite generic: low prim, or low prim furniture. It is not really a niche market

I would have to agree with oryx on the traffic side of things. I have made no changes at all since the new search came in to existence and yet my sales at my main store have increased and now make up around 50% of my total inworld sales where as previously they were running at about 33%. I think maybe carefully selected keywords in a classified advert are more important, I could be wrong but that seems to be the case for me. I only pay 500 a week for my advert and it still gets a high number of tps from it every week.

@Rhiannon: as for the classified, my major problem there is that my keywords are pretty much general ones. When I still made indonesian oriented furniture, that classified went better then the much more expensive one for low prim. Simply because "Indonesian furniture" gave back my classified and not may others. If I want people looking for "Low prim furniture" on my parcel, we are talking about keywords that a few dozen people use.

I understand your problem Marcel, but can I ask, are you just using "low prim furniture" as your keywords ? If you are maybe you could also add more describing what kind of furniture ie. beds, sofas, chairs etc....I know in the past when looking for furniture I have been more specific in my search criteria and searched for Office furniture or whatever it is I am particularly looking for at that time.

(FWIW, I too think that spending more than L$50/wk on Classifieds is a lost cause for almost all businesses.)

Someone really interested in the business side of this should probably be studying the demographics of visitors and buyers, and how those compare. Specifically, the shares of NPIOF, PIOF, and Charter members who come to the store, versus those who actually buy anything, and similarly the distribution of resident "ages."

I've never been to the store, but given the product, I'm guessing that this store will have a huge percentage of NPIOF visitors, and an even larger percentage of the *buyers* will be NPIOF. Now, no offense to NPIOF folks in general, but this is a reasonable proxy for, uh, "frugal." And if the "age" demographics show a preponderance of newbies, it's pretty clear what's driving people to the store and selling the product.

A not-so-nice way to put this is that I suspect the real competition isn't so much other low-prim furniture stores, but rather places like Yadni's and Free Dove, and the BIAB-spawned mall-fillers.

It's possible to try to "up-sell", targeting a different market segment, if one really thinks the stuff should appeal to somebody other than who's buying now, but that's gonna be harder, chancier, and more expensive. And it will disrupt sales to newbies because it will require removing the bots and probably changing lots of stuff, including store layout and decor, specific product offerings, and any other advertising.

Now, if one is not really all *that* interested in the business side of it, one can just plunk down a few more bots and see if it helps. It's very simple to do, and given the likely demographics of the store's customers, probably won't even be noticed by most of them. It's the easy way to maybe squeeze a little more out of the old cash cow without having to really think about it much.

Marcel, you've begun to answer your own question. "low prim furniture" is not necessarily a good keyword search string on its own. "low prim indonesian furniture" on the other hand is, when that is what you're selling. "low prim" is only the anchor here.

As others have mentioned, use keyword strings that highlight a particular kind of furniture that you're wanting to promote at any given time. Niche keywording I think its called.

Using the form of your niche keyword search string to emphasis the product rather than just its construction, will broaden the number of likely hits from a wider range of people.

E.g. "low prim furniture"
"low prim indonesian furniture"
"low prim indonesian outdoor furniture"
"20% off indonesian recliners. Ideal low prim furniture for outdoor pool areas"

And when you're selling a whole range of different kinds of products then change your search keyword string on a regular basis, to reflect this.

This week it might be recliners, next week settees, etc. And over time far more people will find you than otherwise. Simply because while they're all looking for furniture generally, they're looking for specific furniture individually.

When people do find and like your stuff they'll LM your place anyway and won't need to use Search to find you again.

An example in practice:

A little over a month ago, I was asked by a friend to help newcomers like her by providing a space where they could go to change their outfits until they got on their feet. I thought why not, its a simple build and the scripting will be fun.

I used a niche keyword string in my parcel description to let people know. It went:

"changing rooms - newcomer friendly - free to use - got no land and fed up with being peeped at in sandboxes and underwater? Then come here and get changed in your own private changing room / dressing room without others wandering in on you."

The words that people are most likely to search on are all embedded in there, while it also describes both the problem and a solution.

Over the next month people found it. I initially thought maybe 10-12 a day. But it ended up a bit more than that. Its a tiny mainland parcel and I'm mindful of my neighbours, so I scaled back. Firstly by reducing the space available. Secondly, and more importantly, I started trimming my niche keyword string down over the next weeks, to the bare bones it is today. And now there is a manageable stream of people popping in and out. Which works for everyone.

In mentioning the latter I just wanted to show how niche keywording can be used positively to manage traffic (dwell) in a way that benefits both owners and customers.

Edit: /me has just repeated what Rhiannon has said since I began writing this

@Rhiannon: The classified was a while ago, so I do not really remember the keywords I used. Was more then just low prim though. On the other hand I am sure my used keywords can improve a lot to get a better response, though I doubt it will ever make up for the 2k per week I put into that.

@Qui: Thanks, a very good contribution.
Now I am not using any bots at the moment, so it is not so much a question of plunking down a few more, its more a question of wether to use them or not.
My target is especially people with smaller parcels, either PIOFS with small mainland parcels, or NPIOFS who rent for example. The products are priced rather low, and I do not intend to change that part. Up-selling could be a great idea but just is not my thing, I want to try and reach the bigger audience, even if that means being a wall-mart of furniture

The main reason I am trying to get some insights, is that I never were a big fan of traffic bots. Even though I do not belong in the camp of "traffic bots are immoral", I would rather not use them. But given the fact that my main competitors do use them, I can either rest and hope I get my customers through word of mouth and Search All, or join them and run a handful of bots too.

What I wonder is why you think my main competation is in the Free Dove alike venues? People who have to watch their prim limit close need low prim stuff and how much of that is to be found in freebies?

@Tabliopa: Good points!
The problem is that I started with the Indonesian theme, but pretty soon switched to low prim. Because I like to make things as good looking as I can with as less prims as possible. Which immediately makes my keyword possibilities harder.

You gave me a few very good ideas to try out in classifieds though, and I intend to use that within the next few weeks.

Yeah, now that you mention it, you may well be right. The whole furniture market has always kinda baffled me, having never bought a stick of the stuff myself, and having immediately unrezzed every freebie I've encountered. So it could well be that freebie furniture is high prim anyway (besides being hideous), and perhaps especially now that sculpties can cut a lot of prims out of fairly detailed stuff (given time to rez)--and I imagine sculpties are still relatively rare in freebies at the moment.

So, back to the topic: It's disappointing to admit, but to get the Traffic scores for (what I've been presuming to be) a "frugal" market, bots seem hard to beat. Up-scale, there's potential for "shop assistants" who are a couple grades above campers: they have to actually attend to customers in a friendly and helpful way, so would have to be compensated several times camper rates. I've been to stores (clothing--but then that's about all I shop for) where this has been very effective, and really makes the store seem customer-focused and, somehow, "real". Kind of "models" plus "assistants"... but how any of that could work with furniture... well, maybe, to help customers see multiple poses while shopping alone? Kinda grasping at straws, there.

One other observation: There's just nothing like meeting the shop owner at their store. I buy a *lot* more stuff from places where this happens. (Mind you, you'll almost never find me at my own little shop--which is truly bad business because my one big product only makes sense when it's demonstrated. Funny how the RL introvert gets manifested in SL, despite all attempts to "pass".)

i think people depend too much on the search in my opinion..
i look at history of myself and other people that love to shop and look back and see how we evolved from the time of being born until now and look at patterns that led us to places..

how we obtained our information in our first days of not knowing where to look or knowing how to search for things because of the limited words the search uses.

when first coming to sl all we could do was ask questions..the helpful people would either give landmarks or tell you to use the search button or say..omg if you are wanting this you have to go here..

the first thing most want is to fix themselves up walk around and get used to this world interacting with people and making friends..they see some friends having certain things and a lot of times want to get their own little place to call their spot in this world..

they are gonna ask their friends where can i get this or that or how do i do this or that until they really feel they start to become familiar and start to feel their own identity form..

the first stages is a lot of land mark passing and search for this because they have the best "product or prices or quality" or whatever they have the best of..

i don't ever say use word of mouth because it is the most ethical way..i say it because it is the most successful way..

people use the search if they don't know where to look..before they use it will more times than not ask someone they know..you need something that stands out from the rest in some way..

prices or a certain thing that the others don't have that a lot want or want to at least try..

Traffic or adds will get you clumped up with the rest of your competitors and it is then based on sight and ohh lets try this one this time and just see what they have..

it's a small percentage of sales because most will be looking at all of the places instead of going to your store because they were led there for a certain item or were told something about your place that is different from the rest..

it all depends on if you want to stand out or just be on the same level as the rest..

if you want to sell furniture and do it for business experience and be like the rest then you use things the rest are using..you get a lot of window shoppers that stick around for a little bit not really adding to your traffic much and some sales..

if you want to be successful then word of mouth is the best way..you have people going there for one thing and most times will buy the item then have a look around at some other things they may need..

to me the search is a very small part of sales but it does get your name seen with the others..
getting your name heard in my opinion by others would lead to growth..

the best advertising is your customers spreading the word..people overhear conversations in general chat about stores and the curious shopper will go there..

people can game the search until the cows come home or play it by the ethical rules until the rooster roosts but without an attraction or something being talked about you are just going to be another store or club or whatever business you choose..

play on peoples wants needs and curiosity's and you pull them to you with more spending than not..
use the same thing as everyone else and you may get lucky and have them stop in for a browse and a buy..

you make a unique item. what you are after is higher traffic, so those who are intrested in your style of build will be able to see your items and make a choice form there. if you feel bringing them in enmasse is the best approach, then so be it.

do you thang. stand behind your decisions. don't engage in discussion about it if the controversy brings you headaches.

we all have a different philosophy about business ethics. trust in your own judgement, and do what is right for you. in the end, it's no one elses business how your head rests on your own pillow at night.

Marcel...i have a furniture and decor store and for me, using specific key words in all of my info has increased my sales to the point that i dont even use the word furniture anymore. I find that people search for a specific thing - chair, couch, pose, curtain, etc. I would maximize those words in your picks, profile description, land title, store name, the two lines of description of each item etc. I love your stuff and there is a great market for it. I would also use words like bamboo, lounge, tiki, tropical etc. I dont think to many people would think to search indonesian, but i know i have recently searched for those words i just mentioned. I do marketing consulting and would be happy to come and give you some input in world if you like...you were kind enough to give me a free store when i was just starting out and id be happy to return the favor.

Btw, i would not bother with more than 50L per classified, nor would i use bots...they wont get you nearly as much as making your descriptions very very specific.

One other point...i do not try to increase my total traffic...i work to maximize the amount each av spends in my store. I have relatively low traffic numbers and make enough to take home RL money every month after tier costs tec.

I think you knew the answer to your question before you even posted, Marcel But here's my answer.

I depends how serious you are about making money from SL. If you are serious about it, then the only things to do are those that get people into the store. I haven't seen any 'word of mouth' comments in this thread, but ignore such comments. You'll get word of mouth traffic if people like your stuff, but it's your job to *not* settle for just that. It's your job to get as many people through your store as you can. You know about the All search, but here's a bit of info on the Places tab search...

A couple of weeks ago, I did an experiment by reducing my bots from 20 down to 10 for 2 days. It dropped my Places tab ranking to #5. Those 2 days were among the worst I've had since I started to use bots.

As I said, it depends on how serious you are. If you are really serious, there is only one choice regarding bots - but just a few bots won't do it for 'low prim furniture'. They may raise your sales a little, but not by anywhere near the amount that they wouild be raised by being in the top 2 or 3 in the Places tab.

I'm not sure if simple exposure doesn't have at least as big an impact as word of mouth does.

When I come across something, I'll just make a note of the creator's name and visit their store at some point since if I like one thing they made it's more than likely I'll like other pieces as well. Most anyone else I know does the same thing: a practical example would be last week when three of us were clothes shopping and noticed some really nice furniture in a sitting corner of one store and ended up going furniture browsing instead.

Contrasting that to search where it's simply the one who games the most who'll end up on top, quality or like doesn't come into play and it's rather tiresome to find a handful of good stores in hundreds of artifically inflated rankings.

I'll ask friends if I'm looking for something I don't generally keep an eye out for, or if I'm looking for something very specific that would take hours to find, but most anywhere I generally shop for comes from things I've randomly come across in-world and I liked enough to peek at the creator's store, or things that were highlighted on a blog I keep track of.

No so. Word of mouth certainly gets people into the store and they do buy - I get a lot, but it is only a part of the whole thing. Apart from the real biggies - Xcite, Bits n Bobs, etc. - anyone who settles for word of mouth sales is not going to be successful in the way that Marcel is talking about. In time, they may get to cover their tier and maybe a little more, but that's what not Marcel is looking for. Word of mouth alone is not a successful method, except for those biggies that I mentioned. Maybe a year or two down the road, such a tactic could be successful in a niche market, but not with furniture. Niche furniture can sell through word of mouth, but of the people who look for furniture every day, not many look for an individual type of furniture.

I think that Marcel is looking at making real money from it - not just RL money, but *real* RL money - and relying on word of mouth won't do it.

Marcel you've really answered your own question, you're after exposure, and you know how to get it. Search in SL isn't consumer friendly, so you have to make your own choices based on what you think will bring you the best results.

I just like add a bit more about my experience with the new Search All.

In the 1st week my place was opened there was only a few hundred traffic (dwell) which was fine. Despite this however, on one keyword my parcel was ranked first in Search All simply because the parcel name also contained that keyword.

A number of people who I dont know found my place and added it to their Picks without any prompting. Simply because they thought it was a good thing. And because they had substantial interests themselves in different areas, their profiles would have been clicked on alot by others which helped raise awareness and drove traffic to my place. It was bit embarrassing because within 2 weeks my place peaked with 6 of the top 10 spots on that particular keyword. The traffic (dwell) also peaked at 3563. Far too many people to manage given the size of the place.

It was then that I started trimming my niche keyword string. I also removed my place from my own Picks for a short time, signalling to the others, and they did the same. When I relisted my Pick, I reworked my Picks description to differ from my parcel's description which put my personal profile onto the back pages. The descriptions are the same again now, but my personal profile remains on the back pages where I'm quite happy for it to stay. I don't need nor do I want my personal profile to be competing with someone else's business interests for a top 10 listing in Search All.

There is still the odd person who, now and again, adds my place to their Picks and thats fine because its their choice to do so.

The other 3 keywords most commonly used to find my place, result in a top 10 placing for my parcel. And on one of those, a parcel with less traffic (dwell) than mine is always listed 1st. Why? Because like my place, that keyword is also part of their name.

Purely on the matter of Search All rankings, then based on my experience so far, the name of your business/parcel is most important.

Picks themselves appear to add little other than multiple avatar listings in Search All which are easily filtered out in RC 1.20.xx. The only real advantage that I can see in Picks as a traffic driver, is being picked by those who have a large circle of contacts whom also have a reason to look at that person's Picks. Which is simply an adaption of who do you know - who do you recommend.

While Picks may add to the quantity of entries near the top of the Search All rankings; they have little or no impact on who gets ranked 1st. And traffic (dwell) has zero influence on this, as far as I can tell from what has actually happened over the last month.

I still hope for the day that Traffic goes away all together. Weren't they working on that? Oh, wait, did The Big Announcement get in the way, along with Wet T-Shirt Wednesdays?

the day traffic is no longer valid is the day camping stops. that is going to be the same day all my land goes for sale and i go back to basic. i need camping to pay my SL membership and tier.

Have you tried sending some of your items out to blogs, for review? Or creating a few free or L$1 items and using them to participate in some of the gridwide treasure hunts? Those are two more options I can think of that might get your products a wider showing *and* bring people to the store.

Edit: Or hell, even getting a blog, if you don't already have one (Blogspot or Wordpress, for example) to showcase your products. You might find that general searches offworld result in people visiting the blog, then coming to find you inworld.