Encroachment... does anyone know why...

Wow! Great answers!

I think Sling nailed the show-stopper with the "group deeded objects would be lost forever" issue. (Which makes me wonder if the people that handle encroachment AR's are checking for group owned objects before hand.)

Obviously, my question is mostly about the megaprim issue, and somewhat about crashed/abandoned vehicles, poorly placed trees and the like. (and no I don't want to turn this into an unfriendly wasteland. Of course, persistant encroachment results in unfriendly cluttered land... isn't there some middleground? )

There are some obvious conditions that could generate false positive checks and allow neighbors to return objects erroneously, like tortured/cut prims, approximaate bounding box values, strange geography protruding into linksets that surround but not overlap it, etc.

But I would hope it's possible to capture the global x,y,z location of the right-click on the object. If that location is in your land you can return it. After all... we can't click on prims where they aren't. (it would have to ignore multi-selected objects, of course).

I don't necessarily want this to be an auto-return or no-entry thing issue, just the ability for someone with land rights to tidy up manually. (Besides, I don't think no-entry will ever stop tree overlap. )

I'd be perfectly happy if 'Encroachment Abuse Reports' (EARs?) were fed into a lindenbot that did the proper checking, (regardless of how complex those checking rules may be) and then took the appropriate action, whether that's returning or shoving objects off your land if they're deeded to group.

My real concern is that we won't get 'official' larger prims with Havok 4 unless LL solves the encroachment issue. And as the megaprim thread shows, there is an exceptionally high desire for big prims.

Raudf-

One of the reasons you may not see the megaprim encroaching on your land is because your draw distance may not be set long enough to see it's centerpoint, which result in it not being rendered by your viewer. I had a 1024x1024 megaprim covering all of my mainland sim once which I didn't see until others pointed it out to me. (Finding the center was an interesting challenge!) The owner was very cool about removing it fortunately.

I can see it now... someone on a small strip of land only 8m wide between two people with "no encroachment". They drop a few 10x10x10's and watch the ping-pong match that ensues.

Originally Posted by Innes McLeod
It imost likely just the fact that it was never coded in, but it could be because the coding might add to server load. .

To save time and resorce,here's my bruteforce solution.
1. Make the parcel grid with auto encrochment detection.
When anyone build an object that cross the boundary, the grid will auto-detect and make the build failed. Similiar to RL inspection inwhich the building inspector reject your building
permit.

2. Priviledge Encrochment permission.
Ask your neighbour to grant you the Encrochment permission with a fee. If your neighbor accept your fee(negotiate between your neighbor and you). In RL the encrochment is solved by removing the offending structure or pay your neighbor a fine as deem fair.

What I understand about the problem with encroachment is that, serverside, prims are just a bunch of numbers and the only one that matters for locating the prim, is the prim's centre point. The fact that it renders onto or into another parcel isn't even considered, on the server level. The physics bounding box is considered of course, but only by the physics engine. I believe Andrew Linden suggested that with Havoc 4 it would be possible to create a sort of bounding box for each parcel, and then use the physics engine to check for interpenetration between prims and parcels, but that would be some time away.

As for how it was implemented, what I would do is definately not have it happen automatically, as that would put too much strain on the servers and the new physics. I'd make it an on-demand function, and built it into the current "return object" function.

So, you're standing on (or hovering over) land that you have return-object rights to (either your land, or group land where you have that Ability). You right-click on a prim, and select 'More'. If the prim itself is centered on your land, the 'Return' button is on the pie chart like it is now. If the prim center is not on your land, then the 'return' button says 'Check Encroachment'. You click that, and it does a call to physics, to check the prim's bounding box vs the 'bounding box' of the parcel you are standing on (or hovering over). If the prim is encroaching, a floater appears asking "Return?" with yes / no options. If the prim is not encroaching, you get a system message in chat that says "Not encroaching". And - if you are not standing on land where you have return-rights, then the 'return' button is greyed out, like it does now.

That would allow land owners and group-land managers to deal with encroachment themselves, without bothering the Lindens with ARs and would not put any undue strain on the servers because it would only happen on demand, rather than be a constantly running process.

-Atashi

*snickers at the mental image of some poor newb standing there wondering WTF is wrong with his prim* Yeah, point taken. It should do it twice and then auto-return it to inventory, to prevent sim crash.

There ARE ways to handle this issue and honestly, none of them are going to make everyone happy.

But those ad farms would sure be fun.. imagine if the corners of the rotating sign hit a no-encroach....

Sometimes encroachment can be ok. I have a neighbor who built a waterfalls next to some prim farm land of mine - and I am happy to let her rocks overlap onto my land - it adds visual appeal to my land, and as long as the centers are on heres it does not count against my prims - and it lets her use a larger part of her own land without sacrificing aesthetics in sie size of the rocks she uses.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to return prims that encroach sometimes, but it would really have to be a manual things as this is a case where she and I both benefit from letting her prims overlap my land.

Aside: It's perfectly possible to write well-structured code that isn't object-oriented. Likewise, it's possible to write object-oriented spaghetti code.

I doubt that's the problem in this case. I'm inclined to agree with Atashi, that only the client and the physics engine really care, and perhaps the scripting functions. This is just speculation on my part, but it feels right.

I have never understood how some prims get to overlap while others don't.
Example I am new I got 1024m2 lot , learning how to build and where things go, any time I hit neighbors with my prims I keep getting warning messages.
More experience, few month later, got few skilled building friends. mega prims. extremely careful of placement not overlapping anywhere. I even have no object entry. no build, no script on for non-members, may even put up a ban line few times.
Yet neighbors still can find way to do overlapping prims, including boxes on my property some of boxes aren't even owned by neighbors.
I still don't get it.

AFAIK, prims can overlap up to the origin. For obscure reasons of geometry, I was building with some radically dimpled prims (not mega) the other day, and kept bumping into the no-entry border right at the prim origin--but far from any actual prim substance, in this case. It was actually nicer when that happened than when another neighbor's auto-return kicked in five minutes later and great hunks of structure returned to Lost & Found, which again overlapped at the prims' void origins. (Of course, dimpling can work both ways: one could plant what looks like a standard .5m cube on a neighboring parcel, with the origin a good 9.5m away. That would be Very Naughty encroachment.)

As for how stray objects somehow find their way wholly onto no-object-entry parcels: ain't s'posed to happen, but I hear of it all the time.

Bit ago on my own property I had issue with no object entry because I tried to rezz my a expresso machine I just bought.
It took week for object to return or be found.
Wouldn't rezz, and I had no clue where it went and it wouldn't even go to lost and found..

I commented on SVC-744 about my ideas on the solving object-parcel overlap problem. I've been talking about this issue in various venues, including internal email threads. I suspect that if we could start on this project today we would, but there are some projects that block it at the moment. This is not an official promise from LL that we're going to do this; it is just an LL developer brainstorming about how to go about it on public forums.

In brief summary from my comment on the jira link above:

Andrew, I'm very glad you posted! It is good to know that this is in discussion Linden side and well, you'll have many users backing for when/if it rolls out.

Hmm I often wonder why my neighbors can overlap their deck on my land. Perhaps they are practicing naughty dimpled encroachment. LOL
The auto-return thing is bit boinked right now for me.
I got the group title on, just changed the time from 0 to 60 it returned various things which was annoying.
At least when I am building and item is returned I get that but it does seem bothersome sometimes. I wish there was also better sollution to group own land and objects.
I am in sim that I share with friend, we both are in same groups but when crossing areas to build things in one group it can be quite messy. We haven't figured out a sollution with this and I doubt we want to get rid one of the groups and just merge the prims at this point.

Waves and sends hugs to Mykyl. Yes I wish the land would recognize that I am or we are member of the various groups in same neighboring Sims automatically sometimes when rezzing things as long as all the residents or group members or owners didn't have a issue with this or was misused.