Group inviters, die.

I prefer to join if i want...i dont like the blue invite things that spam me when i land...nor do i like the ones that spam me with a landmark, a notecard etc. to me it seems very heavy handed but i have not yet taken the effort to inform anyone of that because i think that also would be rude. they are alienating alot of people but it isnt my job as a customer to inform them of this. it is just really annoying to land someplace and before i can even look around ive got to click several blue boxes and reject the offers. i dont avoid the stores that do this, but i do find it annoying and it does color my perception of the biz owner.

I have had great success with just inviting folks via a chat welcome msg in chat when people land in my store. it just reminds them that they can join by clicking on either the SL group or the subscribomatic group signs and that i give free stuff to my group members weekly. folks love it, it is their choice how they sign up and they are also very appreciative of the things they receive.

i have in the past sent an im and asked folks if they want to join my group...if they respond with yes, then i would invite them. i agree that unsolicited invites get an automatic rejection from me and are seen as spam in my eyes.

Me too. Matter of fact I don't even read them. I just click no (to get rid of the boxes) and keep walking. I'd never bother to contact the owner though, and if there was something I wanted there I'd still buy it. But getting one blue box after another for the LM and the group join, etc, I just want to move on. There is one group I 'unjoined' awhile ago, probably close to a year ago. I still get regular group messages, although the group no longer shows in my groups. Not sure why this is. It's a big popular store.

I'm with most of you folks, Argent, Brenda, Jojogirl, and Treasure. I just don't shop at places that use these "essential" tools of business if I can remember them. I don't go back to or buy from stores any more that bonk me on the head with notecards, and then immediately hit me again with a landmark, then have obvious traffic bots, and group invites, or even those that restrict my teleport landing. I know how to make my own landmark and will do so if I choose and ask for info if I choose.

It has been said that those of us who feel this way are stomping off in a huff, and the tools really do help the stores sales. Fine. You don't need my business then. I find plenty of places that don't do those things, so I shop there because my world, my imagination doesn't include marketing.

It's simple really.

Good Points, Argent....but I actually think it is totally about the store or business, and the impression they make upon you as whole. I enjoy shopping at some businesses or attending a few dance clubs that do have the automatic invite system in place. I'm not going to let a simple click of that button keep me from browsing their store or not having a nice evening dancing. Now if I spot bots, well that's a whole different story!

Maybe because I do not send out anything automatic when you hit the landing point, is a reason that people do not become hostile about a group invite that comes later on. Maybe they tend to judge the whole picture.

I'm sure that there are other businesses that no longer have to actively ask people to join the group, but I was offering an example to small businesses starting out, that in no way has sending a group invite proved to be detrimental to mine, in fact quite the opposite, and I am still a small business starting out, so I still use that tool, and considering the results, it would be foolish not to.

Also suggesting that perhaps an immediate bombardment of notecards and group invites the minute you land, is not the way to go with it, and offering up an alternative method. I use several different approaches to inviting, that was just one...also use the group join box and when I say "Thank You's" to someone who has just purchased an item, it starts up a conversation in IM, where they welcome a group invite.

My store does not stay solvent by the sole action of sending a group invite...it stays solvent with taking care of the group members. But there would be very few, if I did not invite.

I do not consider it spam, and obviously the majority of my customers did not. That's what I go by. Also the fact that only one person in thousands has said something about...that's what I go by.

For those who consider it spam...I respect that, and odds are you would not enjoy being in my store group because I send out promotions every other day, and we get a tad chatty in group chat....so you would consider that activity spam, and probably not be happy...but the people who shop in my store do not consider that spam, and that's who I'm in business for.

Mickey, I wouldn't consider your method Spam either. just aggressive marketing. I would refuse the invite in the manner in which it was presented. Politely. It would be different if you were sending invites out to random people not on your property, as we all know some people do.

So you're saying you think if the store is cool enough it won't tick off too many people because it's got a spambot at the entrance?
"In logic, begging the question has traditionally described a type of logical fallacy (also called petitio principii) in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises."

You're begging the question whether these stores EVER spammed their customers. They didn't. Not starting out. Not ever. What they did was provide people with a positive incentive to seek out and ask to join the group.
I guess you missed the part where I said that it doesn't *matter* whether they work for you or not, or whether they might work for me or not, I still don't consider them an acceptable part of doing business.
Well, when I log in, and I have an unsolicited group invite in among my IMs, I may:

(1) ignore it. That's the best solution for you.
(2) check to see where it came from, and make a note to avoid that business.
(3) AR it as possible spam, if I get more than a couple on a given login, it ticks me off, an I'll AR the lot of them.

I used to have another option:

(4) Send them a message asking when I had asked to join their group, because I didn't remember doing so.

I got some unpleasant responses from that, so I don't bother. If I don't recall, I assume I didn't.



* It's sent to many people, so it's bulk.
* They didn't ask for it, so it's unsolicited.
* You have no business relationship with them, check.

It satisfies the three defining characteristics of spam. It's spam.



* It's sent to many people, check.
* They subscribed to the group, so it's not unsolicited.

Nope, not spam.

Well Argent, like I said, I respect your opinion, but not everyone views it the same way...but our methods are almost alike.... When I log on, and see group invites, I may...

1) Ignore it, and go about having a wonderful day.

2) Check to see where it came from, and make a note that I should probably make a connection with that business owner for networking, as I see that they are energetic about promoting their business.

But only if....

3) I actually visited their store. Now if I didn't actually visit their store...I will possibly.....

4) Send them an IM and say that I think there might be a mistake, that I don't remember visiting their store, and would they please not send me any more notices, and remove me from whatever list I got on.

in which case the answer has always been similar to....

"well, you must have been in the store to sign up" in which I answer...."no, I don't recall being in the store, and I never sign up"

in which case they say "well you will have to come back to the store to be removed".....in which case I answer..."no, I would prefer not to, as that is an inconvenience for me"....in which case the store owner goes ballistic and gets nasty.

This turned out great the other night....we both got a tad pissy with each other, then we figured out that some BOT from one of her neighbor's stores had sent her neighbor's auto messages to me....but again, I never visited her neighbor's store either.....so the gal apologized and sent me some Hair! Awesome gal. I'll probably go visit her. Can I give her a good plug???

I'm not sure if I'm reading your thoughts correctly...but I do not do mass group invites to people who have not set foot in the store. I believe that if they took the time to visit the store, that a business relationship is in the works. I suppose that if I send a "Thank You" via IM for visiting or purchasing something in the store today, (which I often do)....by your standards, that would be spam, as it is unsolicited as well.

Should I become unglued because Amazon.com sent me some book recommendations in my email this morning? I never have before.

Visiting the store doesn't establish a relationship with me. It doesn't matter whether you pop up that dialog when I get to the store or six hours later, it's annoying. If it happens six hours later, I assume the store owner is trying to be sneaky and underhanded about it to try and slip under the radar. Maybe their software is buggy, and they didn't intend it, but I have no interest in debugging their software.

If they buy something from you, request they join your list, or otherwise explicitly interact with you, then there's grounds for a relationship. If I got an invite from a friend, or was just clicking around on the map and landed in your store, I have no relationship with you, and no relationship in the making. I fly all over the grid, and with the grid the way it is that can mean blundering into 30 or 40 stores a day when I'm busy. If they all decided to send me IMs or group invites I'd miss IMs from people who I *do* have relationships with, my customers, landlady, and of course friends.

There's a nice, simple, effective, and realistic line here. I'm doing business with you? You get the right to send me a small amount of unsolicited junk mail... so long as I have the right to say "we no longer have a relationship" if I think I'm getting too much. Otherwise, you don't.

Who's getting unglued? You're setting up a straw man here. I'm explaining why I draw a line where I draw a line, that's all.

And, well, if I'd never bought anything from Amazon and they emailed me, I'd treat that as spam. But I *have* bought something from them, so a relationship exists.

And your thoughts on Unsolicited Thank You's? Do you consider that spam?

It's the same thing...if you accidentally stumbled upon my store, and accidentally fell through the revolving door....it appears you might become unglued if I send you a Thank You for visiting the store....as it is unsolicited, and you were not attempting to establish a business relationship. Is this true?

To people who bought something from you?

* Bulk - yes.
* Unsolicited - yes.
* To strangers - no, if they bought something from you, they're not strangers.

I might become unglued if you ignore my hint that referring to "I'm mildly annoyed, and might file an AR if I get a bunch of spam" as "becoming unglued" is a stupid debating trick that you should be grown up enough to avoid.

Big ups =)

Opt-in always works better for me. If I want it then I will clik on it, sit on it or whatever.

Wow! Very interesting. Well, nice debate, but I'll stick to what built my business. I did take a few things into consideration, that were mentioned above, and changed the wording on the invites.

We all choose where our lines are....I choose to say Thank You, whether they bought something or not....and changed the group invite message to reflect that.

Here's a hypothetical for you Argent....let's say I'm enjoying a romantic evening at a dance club in SL....and there you are just a few feet away, with your Coonspiracy tag above your head....now I really don't care to see Coonspiracy Advertising while I am enjoying a romantic evening....and I might just consider that Unsolicited Spam!

That doesn't even satisfy the first part of the definition of spam: there's only one copy of my tag in world at one time, so it's not even bulk.

I only send One per person....and now I start it with a Thank You...so now it is an official Thank You, that happens to have group join option

There's only one copy of my tag in world. Not one copy multiplied by the number of people who have been through my store in the past 24 hours. ONE COPY, period, not ONE COPY per person.

If I pass through the range of 30 bots while flying over the mainland in Mehve, and they each send me a "thank you" 6 hours later, I won't get any legitimate messages... because my IMs will be capped. SO long as it's just you sending sneaky messages, that's not going to happen, but this kind of thing has a habit of spreading... and it doesn't scale.

You would be doing MUCH less damage by sending an app link to the group in chat, when the person visits, than doing it by stealth several hours later.

If I get spammed to join a group, I'm less to return. I wouldn't bother telling the business owner unless I'm really committed to the brand, and that hasn't happened yet. I don't even mention this to owners I know, unless they ask for my input.

Yes, business groups are a very useful tool. However, most people loathe spam, and most people also know that fighting it is a waste of time. If you fight SPAM, the spam wins by taking even more of your time.

I'm not in a shop to do the store owner a favor. I'm there for my own interests. When they're not met, I quitely move on. There are usually plenty of competitors who don't spam me.

I'm not particularly fond of automated greeters either, unless they have information that actually helps me find what I'm looking for or provides some value to me personally. But at least greeters can be ignored and don't require interaction, and they don't affect my shopping habits.

I suspect I represent the vast majority of shoppers in these regards.

If I only get the join request once, it wouldn't bother me. Evidently you can include a message with a join request -- if you have room to say "This request won't be repeated", then I'd ignore it as a one-time minor nuisance and it wouldn't deter me from returning to shop.

Without that information, I'd suspect that I'd be spammed again, reducing my likelihood of a return visit.

@Mickey: what does strike me as quite funny, is the arguments in your posting: it works for my business, so I will keep it running. After that, you defend it being no spam.

Well as Argent already showed, they are spam according to the definition of spam. Any compare with Argent walking around with floating text seems weird as that is completely different. Bulk, unsolicited, to strangers. Spam.

Now why does your argumentation strikes me as so funny? Because I remember the thread about bots and picks buying. And your part in that thread. Remember? That was exactly the opposite situation of this one: Phil, me, and some others were defending the use of bots and/or picks buying as a business practice. Just as you are defending your way of doing business now. If I remember correctly, it resulted in the fact I was not allowed on your networking list.

In my country, this is called using double standards.

There is nothing "sneaky" about sending a person an opportunity to get free items or to get discounts on additional items purchased, and that applies to almost any retail business owner's group (unless they do nothing with the group). Venue group owners offer similar advantages.

There have been many times when I've seen someone come back a few days later, and buy a whole list of things, that would have been considerably discounted if they were a group member, and this is just a way to give them a heads up on that. NOT telling them about that, well now that would be sneaky.

My point in continuing to debate with you, is that I don't want a new business owner learning here, to get the impression that inviting people to take advantage of these benefits is taboo. It is not. It's an effective tool offered to build their business. Use it.

If someone becomes unglued over receiving an offer to take advantage of your benefits, just be polite. My records show that those people are in the minority.

If someone chooses not to shop at your store, simply because you sent them a group invite, well they're probably not going to like receiving your promotional notices every other day or will probably not like listening to your group chat sessions, and probably won't care for your lucky chairs or gift tossers. That's fine...you can't be everything to everyone.

Sell to those who identify with you. If you do heavy promotion, your niche will be the people who enjoy those freebies and discounts on a daily basis...work that niche. If your niche is people who prefer never to hear from you, and don't care to take advantage of special offers....then work that niche...and don't sent a group invite.

It would be foolish not to take advantage of a marketing tool that you discovered consistently worked for your business. People generally do not click a join box while they are there. If I waited for that to happen, the group would still be at 100. There is nothing wrong with encouraging them to join, and there is nothing shameful about wanting to build your group. If you set an item out on sale....and never ran an ad on it...well, it will just sit there. You might sell one or two because Joe spotted it while in the store. Same with your group....you promote it this way, just as if you would run a classified ad on your sale item.

Will also add, that people in RL or SL become unglued every day about the most trivial of matters....human nature. Don't let that group of people cloud your judgment on how to go about your day. There is nothing wrong in choosing NOT to cater to those people. If I had one or two complaints about sending out a group notice on a special every day....I choose not to cater to those people, but to cater to the majority who want the notices. Same with group invites, and the benefits attached to them.

Lear, that is why I do the invites by hand every night. I pay very close attention to the new names on the list, before I type them into the inviter, and try very hard not to repeat an invite, if they visit the store again a few days later. This is becoming more difficult as the list grows longer every day, so I may start sending invites to just those people who purchased, since I will have a record of their names on transaction list....rather than having to hand write down every name on a piece of paper to keep track of.

It is very time consuming...but I choose to do it that way, because 1) I like reviewing who was in the store, and how often they stop in, and 2) I am aware of the sensitivities in receiving a group invite.

I can't really guarantee that they will not receive another, in case I slip up on one or two names. Would be nice to find a scripted tool - where you could plug the names in, and it would record if that person has been invited before.

What's sneaky is doing it several hours after you visit the store. This means that if it does annoy me, I'm less likely to associate it with a particular store. In addition, that means it happens when I'm offline so the invite comes up in a bunch of messages when I log in, and that is a fairly common way for people to try to trick you into joining groups. On top of that, because it happens when I'm offline, it contributes to the problem of IMs getting capped which can lead to lost assets, missed messages from MY customers, and so on. It makes a minor annoyance into something that feels sneaky and malicious to me.

If they buy something that's a whole different matter from just visiting the store.

And my point is to make sure that people understand that it makes a HUGE difference how you go about it, and how you're going about it is antisocial.

There you go with that straw man again. Nobody's getting unglued. Though if I start getting several group invites like this every time I login because people think you're doing something cool instead of something that can cause real damage if it becomes common, I might well start getting unglued.

Snce I am in groups that have frequent chat, and occasional promotional notices... and yet I avoid businesses that spam me... I really can't believe but that you're mistaken on this point.

This has nothing to do with "heavy promotion" versus "not wanting to hear from you", this is all about the manner in which you are engaging in your promotion.

What does Coonspiracy mean?

It's a raccoon conspiracy, a group full of disreputable varmints who are tossing your garbage cans RIGHT NOW.

Mickey's just jealous that we have such stylish tails and masks.

If I receive a well worded, friendly invite from a store owner, I do not consider it spam, and I've adjusted my own greeting to take that into consideration. I don't have a problem with a store or venue owner hitting me up with a group invite the minute I arrive....however, I would be much more impressed if they gave me an opportunity to walk around the venue or store before hitting me up with a group invite...and my system reflects that.

I don't really care to be hit up with more than 2 notecards the minute I arrive at the store...and I do not do that in my store....I prefer a message to come across chat...that way I don't have to click half a dozen boxes before walking into the store. So I do not toss notecards out at my front entry. They will get one if they walk close to a gift bag....but that is rarely positioned at front entry.

However...if they are a very cool store or a very cool venue....I really don't care what they hit me up with....because I choose to go about enjoying the day, rather than choosing to be annoyed.

So....I probably visit and shop venues and stores that run similar methods of operation as I do...I think most of us tend to do that. Nothing wrong with identifying who you prefer to shop with based on the way they run their store. And nothing wrong with a store owner identifying who their customer is and catering to that type of customer.

I send the notices at the end of day or early morning because it is a time consuming task the way I do it, and it takes about an hour. No, you may not be online....but you may not be online if I sent the notice 20 minutes after you shopped. I prefer NOT to send an IM while you are in the middle of shopping. If I am online when they are done shopping, I try to take that opportunity to thank them and invite them to group...if they say no on the group thing (which very rarely happens)....then I jot down their name, and they do not receive an invite later.

No business owner can be online 24/7...this is an electronic venue, for goodness sake...take advantage of it.....we use the same technologies to run the business as you use to walk around....and we seek out the tools to make running the business more efficient....which will lead to more efficient service and more benefits to you as a shopper.

In a nutshell, Argent....I probably cater to an entirely different type of person than you....no shame in that. The people I cater to do not complain about any of the promotional tools I use....quite the opposite, and they did not complain about the initial group invite....very often thanked me for it. I would venture to say that my group members as a whole are fun and care free people who spend their time in SL having fun, and not getting annoyed at petty things.

No offense to do those who do...you just wouldn't enjoy being in my store group....and because the store group is consistently the bulk of my business, that is who I will cater to.....and that is the type of person that I will catch with a group invite...they read the notice....saw some advantages....and joined. Simple as that. If someone becomes unglued over a friendly invite....and they choose not to come back to the store for that sole reason... I'm cool with that.....and that was the whole point to the new business owners starting out.

Well one thing this discussion has done. Now I have to come visit your store just to see what it's like!