Wagering in Second Life, Foreign Transaction Fees

Dear Sir or Madame,

I used to operate Myth Gaming. Upon the declaration that all wagering in SL was banned, I immediately pulled my poker tables, 12 in all and stopped a business that employed 48 people around the globe. It amazes me that the 1000s of hours that were spent creating a gaming room such as Myth was killed overnight. I understand the logistics of the wagering business and I understand why the ban was implemented. Saying that, I'm sure you are well aware that overnight, underground poker houses have opened up, and are very very prevalent in Second Life. Anyone looking for a game of poker can find one. Why is it that I cannot legally operate a poker house when the people that have these underground poker rooms are not being held accountable. There have been a number of stories that have been relayed to me that those people operating these back rooms are warned and they simply just move their operations. I have visited at least 3 of these poker rooms, and NO I have not reported them. Why didn't I? I didn't report them because I don't think Poker is illegal.

Here is another set of issues I'm having with Second Life. Since the closure of Myth Gaming, I have paid my tier in time, each and every month. I had 4 islands, now I have 3. I sold one so that I could keep up on my payments and not loose what little assets that I have remaining in Second Life. I have started working extra in RL to keep up with my Second Life obligations. This month I checked my PayPal for the island fees that were charged and long behold I see a transaction for: Foreign Transaction fee. Here are the details that I copied and pasted.
Debit Card Purchase (ID #xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)


Original Authorization

Date Type Status Details Amount
Oct. 21, 2007 Debit Card Purchase Completed Details -$195.00 USD
Oct. 21, 2007 Foreign Transaction Fee Completed ... -$1.95 USD
Net Amount: -$196.95 USD


Related Transactions
Date Type Status Details Amount
Oct. 18, 2007 Authorization To SECOND LIFE.COM 1 800 8606990 GB Completed Details -$195.00 USD
Oct. 21, 2007 Debit Card Backup Funding -Bank of America Bank Account xxxxxxxxxx Completed Details $1.95 USD
Oct. 21, 2007 Debit Card Backup Funding -Bank of America Bank Account xxxxxxxxxx Completed Details $195.00 USD
Original Authorization:
Additional Authorization:
Total Payment: -$195.00 USD
-$1.95 USD
-$196.95 USD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fee:
Foreign Transaction Fee
Amount:
-$1.95 USD
Status:
Completed
I called concierge at LL, and they told me that the payment processors of Linden Labs are in the UK. Now that's interesting, why was I not informed of this, and why am I getting charged a fee for being in the US. If LL is in the US and cannot allow wagering due to the processing of currency, when and why did they move their processing to the UK and is LL now a UK based company, and if it as UK based company can players resume wagering practices in SL? Are all US players of Second Life with premium memberships chareged this foreign transaction fee?

I personally have held to the laws of Second Life and RL, I have a legitimate concern with these backrooms and am hoping the that new Skill Game Protection Act will pass through congress and LL will act appropriately. Poker is a skill and therefore should have never been included in the ban in the first place. Poker does not involve a conventional pot of monetary value. Each person that plays poker knows that it is skill. No matter what your cards are, you can still win depending you ability to read other players, your ability to bluff. IT IS A SKILL. I hope LL comes to the realization that poker is indeed a skill based game with some of its components being random, although these random components can be controlled by the player. If a player does not receive 'good' cards they have the option of folding their hand, and not wagering or putting money into the pot. Again it is player controlled. Poker therefore would not be considered a random game with a pot payout.

I look forward to hearing from anyone at Linden Labs and hope to get this situation resolved. Why should a legitimate business owner suffer when others are profiting on what that business had build from the ground up?

Sincerely,



Mithik Vavoom *Second Life*

Myth Enterprises LLC

Umm...yeah. Good luck with that.

Though you might do better to tell it to LL, not us. Or better yet, your lawyer.

~Jessy

(A) We are residents, not Linden Lab. We cannot answer on their behalf.

(B) The foreign transaction fee is levied by your bank, not by Linden Lab. Not all banks pass this cost on to you (mine doesn't). If you have a problem with it, take it up with your bank, or choose to use a different card.

FFS

DO YOU HAVE A LICENCE TO OPERATE A CASINO?

If you do not ... wind it in! ANY idea how complex the regulations for compliance are? Huh? Huh?

Sheesh

***edit***

Look, I understand that you are annoyed but Poker is not JUST a game of skill. A random number generator is required to serve the cards. Wagering. QED. And I am not at work atm so I am going to shut up about flipping gambling, I come to SL to ESCAPE my RL!!!

***edit edit*** Ava ... you are spot on in both regards, well said

I might add that internet poker is so easily rigged that it cannot be considered either a game of skill OR a game of random chance. Anyone who sits down at an internet poker table is taking a huge risk of throwing their money away to a team of sharks.

Not saying that the OP is guilty of such tactics. Only that it's all too easy to do.

Can't say I disagree ...

(Not that I would disagree with the delightful Lindal anyway)

join the group "Report Gambling Violations" and spam the group chat with slurls to every illegal place so all teh members can go A/R them at once.



(or dont)

what game room took 1000's of hours to set up?

WOW Id have liked to seen that place it must have been the most fantastic build in the entirity of Second Life.

Since even the best builds Ive seen took only a couple weeks at most.

Perhaps in SL, but absolutely incorrect across the board for internet poker at reputable sites such as Pokerstars, Full Tilt, Absolute or Bodog. They are, in some cases regulated in their local jurisdictions and in any case, regulated by players who collect literally millions of hand histories and perform the statisitcal analysis on them to make sure that they are in line with what they ought to be. There are programs available that help do this. In addition, sites like Pocketfives and Twoplustwo contain forums dedicated to monitoring the various sites and there has been no evidence of rigged games in poker, ever - something that certainly can't be said for live poker. The worst case ever was a scandal involving the mishandling of funds by commingling them with operational funds at a site run by Dutch Boyd called Pokertime. Even then, the games were fair. it was the business practices of the operator that were improper. Reputable sites hold player money in separate trust accounts at legitimate banks. RNG's are constantly tested.

Online poker may be illegal (not arguing this one way or another), but it is trustworthy. FWIW, it also paid for my boat. I just lost a database of around 200,000 hands that showed almost perfect compliance with statistical norms.

If LL is in the US and cannot allow wagering due to the processing of currency,
--LL chooses to modify thier "in house" rules so that there is no question of compliance. You comply with Linden Labs regarding gambling- NOT the US. In perhaps simpler terms- LL is the supreme being of Second Life. They hold the power to give or take away any manner of rights and privileges- including the termination of our accounts. If they choose to disallow pink rabbits on Tuesdays then they can revoke your account privileges for being a pink rabbit on a Tuesday. LL has chosen to not allow any form of gambling. The reasons behind this decision are legal- but it is not a US law that is being enforced- it is a Linden Labs law. Technically LL CAN allow wagering involving the processing of currency- but instead of US going to jail for violations of the law THEY go to jail. Pretty strong incentive, but the decision was entirely voluntary.

when and why did they move their processing to the UK
--Several months ago. If someone knows exactly why- they are more informed than I. As far as I know it is a mystery.

and is LL now a UK based company,
--No. They have operations in the UK much like many companies have an international presence in several countries doing business from and within those far flung regions. An excellent example is outsourced tech support- many of the times you call your software company you're not talking to someone in the US- you're talking to a tech support hub in another country.

and if it as UK based company can players resume wagering practices in SL?
--Even if they WERE a UK based company they would still be under pressure to shut down gambling by American credit card companies and American laws and they would probably still make the VOLUNTARY decision to shut down gambling.

Are all US players of Second Life with premium memberships chareged this foreign transaction fee?
--Depends on your bank. I am charged about that for every USD to L$ transaction I make and for my tier. It sucks.... but I've been charged that for months now. It's not new.

I personally have held to the laws of Second Life and RL, I have a legitimate concern with these backrooms and am hoping the that new Skill Game Protection Act will pass through congress and LL will act appropriately.
--Irrelevant. The law did not force the decision (although later on it could have). It was a voluntary decision that was made willingly by the staff of Linden Labs and I would expect it to remain regardless of ANY law changes.

Poker is a skill and therefore should have never been included in the ban in the first place. Poker does not involve a conventional pot of monetary value. Each person that plays poker knows that it is skill. No matter what your cards are, you can still win depending you ability to read other players, your ability to bluff. IT IS A SKILL. I hope LL comes to the realization that poker is indeed a skill based game with some of its components being random, although these random components can be controlled by the player. If a player does not receive 'good' cards they have the option of folding their hand, and not wagering or putting money into the pot. Again it is player controlled. Poker therefore would not be considered a random game with a pot payout.
--Irrelevant. LL has made their decision voluntarily and willingly and have specifically named poker as one of the outlawed games. It simply doesn't matter what you judge the randomness to be- they have made their decision. Given it's inclusion in a larger ban of the same sort I would not expect ANY allowances to be made for the specific game of poker.

I look forward to hearing from anyone at Linden Labs
--You're posting in the wrong place. Email/phone customer support. this is a forum for residents helping residents.

and hope to get this situation resolved.
--It IS resolved as far as LL is concerned. The games are banned. End of story.

Why should a legitimate business owner suffer when others are profiting on what that business had build from the ground up?
--For the same reason that my sister speeds like a maniac and never gets caught while I get caught toodling along at 56mph in a 55 zone. The enforcement cannot be everywhere at once and sometimes- someone is going to get away with murder. Literally in real life. Robberies, backroom deals, murders, there are millions of unsolved crimes out there that will never get solved- stories of someone doing something that they should not be doing while people who were minding their own business and behaving properly get hurt.

It's not a fair world out there. It's a rather harsh and cruel place filled with injustice and people who do not get what they deserve- good or bad. If life is handing you lemons in this case- make some lemonaid instead of bitching about the lemons.

I stand corrected.

I was a customer at Myth gaming and I can definitely say that it was run very well (better than 99% of the businesses that operate(d) in SL). It was a great environment, with an excellent staff. I really miss it!

What you should take from this thread is that he did the honorable thing and closed upon request (and at a considerable loss). I can understand that LL is thinking about their liability for allowing what they perceive as a questionable activity, but they have killed an entire demographic of SL resident that enjoyed playing a game of skill for fractions of a penny (yes, less than you'd play for fun).

With all the crap that goes on Online, are we really that concerned about online poker?

ohhhhh....dang. Lindal. I just reread my post and I really sounded like an a-hole, didn't I? I'm sorry. I let some RL stress get to me there and it really showed in the tone of my post. I didn't mean to sound like that.

There is some chat about reversing the laws. I don't know or care much about it.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6452153/
http://blog.commerce.net/archives/2005/07/wto_gambling_de.html
http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dltr/articles/2004dltr0013.html

No, no...I didn't take it badly, Trout. I play poker so infrequently that I always have to ask what beats what when I finally do sit down to a game...and I am almost totally ignorant of internet poker in general, except that I have a few acquaintances who are avid players. My hat's off to anyone who can win enough to buy a car, sir!

But I HAVE read about, and believe, the tales of backroom operations in SL, with several players physically in the same room, on different computers, setting out to fleece the rubes. Or even not in the same room, just communicating their hands to each other via IM or Skype outside of SL. So, I guess my question would be, how do the "legitimate" internet poker sites prevent such collusion?

Online Poker is NOT illegal, per se.

However, taking bets from a prohibited jurisdiction is.

US, Australia, Canada, Italy and France are all no-nos for the company I work for (we're pretty much as clean as it gets in compliance stakes).

In SL that would be easy to do. I didn't play in SL for that reason, plus, I wasn't around for long before the ban went into effect. There are a number of ways that legit sites check for collusion. Remember those sites exist only for poker, so they can dedicate resources to security, unlike LL who doesn't regulate much of anything. Legit sites have algorithyms that track hand histories to determine if player's are dumping chips. Odd play patterns like you would find in a rigged game get flagged and investigated. They trace IP's when possible, although that isn't foolproof. In tournament play, which is what I primarily do, seats are randomly assigned so it's much harder to get at the same table with your friends. There have been a couple players who have gotten into trouble for trying to get multiple seats in a tournament - a guy named Justin Bonomo went down HARD a couple years back when Party Poker siezed his entire bankroll after he played multiple seats in a tournament.

As far as Skype and similar programs go, it's not impossible, but it's not profitable. At the lower stages, the earnings don't justify sitting the same players at multiple tables. They don't even justify sitting one player at a table. You need to be able to play multiple tables at a time to profit. I play 4 to 6 tables when I play cash, which is rare, because playing 4-6 tables scrambles my brain. At the higher limit tables, the players tend to know each other because there just aren't a ton of people playing with that kind of dough. If there was chip dumping going on, someone would know pretty quickly.

I guess the upshot of it is that you might get some collusion. I doubt it's much and at the levels I play, even with a little collusion, they are beatable for a tidy profit. I play mostly sit n gos and tourneys, so collusion there is even harder. As for the sites rigging the decks to generate action, I honestly don't think it happens. I'm willing to bet my entire bankroll on it. On the other hand,I have sat at live tables where there is collusion between local players that even the dealer is in on. No kidding! I saw a poker room manager in a fairly large room sit at a table with house chips and throw hand signals to obvious regulars while they took apart some mark. Unbelievable. Live poker is far more likely, in my opinion and experience, to be rigged or subject to collusion.

Anyway - that's my 5L. Who knows. It may be a complete scam. When the UIGEA hit, I converted my bankroll to a nice little boat and I only play on about $300 now, which I manage agressively so I don't blow it. If it gets lost, I'll be irritated, but not terribly injured.

EDIT: I should add that before you take off your hat, It took me the better part of a year to earn enough money to buy that stupid boat, and I'm guessing I was doing it at sub-minimum wage. If I didn't love the game, I'd probably have just gotten a second job and earned the boat in a month.

On what do you base these comments?

As someone who supplements my income with online poker (not SL poker, even when it was legal, except for the occassional "fun poker" night), I limit myself to reputable sites that put a lot of resources into ensuring that the game is fair. Collusion, and other forms of cheating, are quickly detected and just as quickly eliminated.

A blanket statement that insinuates that it is impossible to play a fair game of online poker reeks of hyperbole.

- Ace

Online gambling is currently illegal in the United States, though a few proposals have been brought forward to legalize online gambling with lots and lots of taxes/government regulation.

I should've limited that comment to "poker in SL". See the discussion between me and Trout, above.

poker is a SKILL ! i m with you mythic !!! lovin you and your old place !!! KEEP CASINO LEGAL IN SL !!! they are nothing interesting in sl the only thinks u can find is sex ... i hate this ggame now ...

So speaks a person who lives in the really real world.

Tell you what ... why don't you lobby the US Government if you want casinos to be legal in SL. After all, Linden Labs rule the planet and make all the rules and regs. I wish they did, I'd much prefer to FLY to work.

/me wanders off muttering "If I slapped people *I* would be the one who got into trouble".

I *LOVE* this metaverse ...

I will back Trout up here Lindal.

We stopped running our own poker client cos we have changed how we operate. However, we had people watching the tables for any sign of unusual activities, we did indeed run algorythmns to pick up anything odd, we had a specialist anti-fraud team, we had measures in place to prevent people from withdrawing cash if we could see something dodgy going on ... etc etc.

So, um, anyone used Iron Perth's strip poker table? *asked very casually*

You will have to lobby the US Congress to get gambling back in SL.

State by state differences have always been there tho ... so we are watching that space and praying at my workplace LOL.