Server class distinction to be eliminated

I agree with you mostly, until we get to the bit about the original purchasers should get to keep the grandfathering.

The argument for keeping grandfathering indefinitely as long as you don't transfer does not make sense either, people who bought them knew it may not last, were told it was not a "lifetime" thing and should have factored that into their buying. Secondly, pricing and the details of what you get for that price have changed for many people over time, why should grandfathered sims be so different that those can remain static as long as you don't transfer them?

No, I think that LL ought to level the tier for full price islands once they move to class 5's for all. If they want to offer individual customers relief due to the benefit their business brings to LL then that is fine, those kinds of things are part of doing business and what each customer has agreed to with LL is a private thing between them.

Forget about SL for a second, Gabriele.

I'll bet there are plenty of people reading this that couldn't take a 1300 USD a month, sudden, permanent hit to their real life expenses without getting into big trouble.

That's the problem.

So yeah, they can't just shut it off like that, ever, and expect estates like mine to survive.

Here's why:
1) SL is worth the time for me now.
2) Suddenly subtract 1300 a month and it's not.

It's very simple. I can't spend 20 or 30 hours a week on a hobby that suddenly pays like a McDonalds job. It changes the economics from "good to stay" to "cut as fast as possible to minimise damage."

Remember, roughly, for every buck I make Linden Research makes two. Pulling the plug on me wipes out an existing, stable 110,000 USD worth of annual income for them that I have built up over years.

Would Caledon residents suddenly become mainlanders? Would they forget? Would they continue to write cool, positive things across dozens of blogs? Just about everyone knows the answer to those questions.

* * * * *

Sure, rates can change. 20 buck changes in the rates, up or down, over a year's time are totally manageable.

But it's financial suicide to make sudden, shock changes like 100/month. Even if it's announced months in advance. The openspace debacle was proof.

Forget about me, I'm a decimal point. I've only got 13 of these things. But say you got 100. For example, D'Alliez is over 100 regions last I looked, effectively solid booked with happy residents on 195/month.

Imagine D'Alliez estates suddenly getting hit with a *ten thousand dollar a month* change.

Now think of that same change hitting Adam and Anshe simultaneously; that ten thousand dollars a month will look small, and my problems vanishingly small.

People like me would walk away, but those losing 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 thousand dollars a month are probably going to pursue every option and fight it any way they can.

* * * * *

Incidentally, it was this kind of insight that led me to hold onto my homesteads during the disaster last year.

I wasn't "sure" sure, but I was fairly sure that they weren't going to up the rates on 95/mo homesteads this summer. I was well aware that it would have been economically devastating to them. For every dollar we make on homesteads, Linden Research makes many, many more. My boots are on the ground in this market, and I can see what's going on.

In fact, I'm about 70% sure that 95/mo homesteads won't go to 125/mo next year, either. The market will likely be too soft and they will lose most of them, alienating bucketloads of customers along the way, if they do.

Am I right or wrong? Time will tell.

I just can't be in the business of being wrong too often, and neither can Linden Research. I'm pretty sure this is why they made the call they did.

The right move will to be for them to not announce radical, sudden price changes any more. Up or down.

A couple bucks a year, ten or twenty bucks a year is one thing; 195 to 295 is insanity, as is 75 to 125. Moves like that create inequities like this and alienate people like crazy.

And you think they've both learned this and care? The pricing of SLEnterprise really has me wondering with the US$5500 per person entry free..

That said, I'd vote for the early investors (and that's what the old land barons are, IMO) to continue to get a break for at least the near/mid future. I wouldn't have much of a problem with them dropping the grandfather-on-transfer, though - give people 6 months notice and they can shut that off.

Which is why I think they have decided that they make more money leaving grandfathered sims transferable than they'd make if they didn't.

Why should they not get to keep the tier price that they agreed to pay when they purchased? How does this harm you, anybody else, or SL?

All of this is an appeal to emotion Desmond.

Not everyone getting the grandfathered status has personal finance issues nor has anything particularly special worth preserving.

I am sorry for your personal circumstances but "poor me" stories are dime a dozen on the grid, I don't believe your problems should cut you any special sway with anyone, they are not even amongst the worst I have heard.
Sure it is your main job, but many people who use SL as their main job are also struggling to find money for groceries each month, even more have already had to leave SL to get a RL job. You sound significantly better off even on that score. Discussing this on personal terms is not a good basis for discussing. Period.

In your shoes, I would be telling LL that they need to help preserve something that is worth preserving, and I think Caledon is worth preserving and your custom should be worth doing that , LL may then cut you a special deal on that basis.

It is clear to me that anyone who bought grandfathered sims thinking they would remain so forever and make no provision for that changing made a very poor business judgement based on short-sighted vision that has led to a "grandfathering trap".
If it was necessary because otherwise it was not possible to compete in that marketplace without them, then it was never feasible to compete because sooner or later that perk would have to go. Those are economic realities.

You didn't addressed most of the points I brought up about how you would have ever expected to be able to get out of the grandfathering trap anyway or how you would be able to in the future.

Surely you see that it is a trap? Or do you really think that LL will, can and should allow all grandfathered sims to stay at USD195 in perpetuity?

It is not about it hurting anyone, they were never promised it forever and therefore it should not be expected to be forever. Everything has it's time and I believe that when all sims are class 5's, that time has come.

That is a possible motivator, certainly and until they possibly find many other sim owners are willing to abandon or tier down in protest at not getting as good a rate for the same hardware. They may sing differently then, time will tell.

Your position isn't that different from mine really, I would agree with giving reasonable adjustment time. I can certainly agree that (in Desmond's) case USD1300/month just dropped out of nowhere is a real problem, however I don't actually know how that will help land owners who have taken a lot of tier up front (like a years worth). If I understand (from reading the forums) Desmond's business enough, he has more than a few of these customers. Hence my question about to Desmond about how much time he perceives he would need to get out of the grandfathering trap.

So, what you are saying is it's completely arbitrary and has no other justification than you think "it's time?"

No, I think it is time because of the levelling of the sim hardware. It is an ideal opportunity to do so. The question isn't why should they not do this but why should all sims on the grandfathered rate still be on that rate? They don't cost less to maintain, the hardware and servicing costs the same. There is simply no reason unless you want to cut that particular person a concession because their business is special.
Those with businesses that are special should get discounts but not via this policy which rewards not-so-special businesses also.

I would actually be in favour of USD195 pricing for all full sims and estate tools for those who own all of a mainland sim. I doubt that will happen though.

1) Not an appeal to emotion. Caledon feasible now. Caledon - 1300 USD/mo infeasible. Period.

2) This isn't my main job. How did you get this idea? I have a small corporation that serves the electronics development market.

3) There's nothing to discuss with Linden Research. I have no desire to exhort them to do anything. They made the right call. It's imperfect, yes, but hey, I've lost several thousands of dollars on policy changes too. If people paying 295 wish to exhort Linden Research to do something for them... good luck. Truly.

4) I reject this term "grandfathering" entirely; your logic doesn't follow. It's sort of like "Hey, gasoline is now thirty bucks a gallon, what are you complaining about?" Nonsense ~ it's to be rejected outright. That kinda stuff is just downright weasely (no offence to Argent).

* * * * *

They did the right thing for invested oldbies this time. It would have been more accurately targeted if 195/mo regions didn't transfer, but hey, that was their call.

And it shows they are trying, and takes some of the sting out of having lost several thousand USD on openspace/homestead things this past year.

Of course, my strategies may bother you Gabriele but there's nothing I can do about that.

Could they wipe out me and Alliez and Anshe and Adam and others? Oh sure, but remember they make at least two dollars, if not three or four for every dollar we make.

The sim hardware will never, ever be level; it isn't now and won't be in the future.

Computers upgrade too quickly, and unless they replace all of them at once and buy all the ones to be sold until the next "complete and total upgrade" this will always be the case.

That's not going to happen.

But how do you determine who is special? I think I'm pretty special. The debate over who was special enough would be a bloodbath. I'd agree that it's getting time to shut off the transfer of the $195 tier rate or at least restrict it to only transferring at that rate to someone who owned an estate sim prior to the price increase in 2006. If the intent was to honor oldbies who helped build SL, that would be the way to do it.

I think the price increase was a mistake in the first place and $195 was a reasonable tier amount, but a whole lot of RL people got greedy in 2006 and made some overly optimistic financial decisions out of giddiness. LL wasn't alone at that particular party. What I don't know is how they would do a price decrease at this stage in the game.

Sorry, I thought it was your main job, that only strengthens my position. Why should anyone care about your personal circumstances? Everyone has personal circumstances.

I am merely critiquing your position as stated on the public SL forums, you are really reaching if you think they bother me.

I am also sorry but it is your logic that does not follow "I signed up at this price, so that price must remain forever". Tell me one business that will allow that to fly?

They called lifetime accounts, *lifetime* - now there was a guarantee (of a sort).
Did they use the same terms when you class 4's were original grandfathered? I doubt it.

You ask why should they increase the price and I ask why should they keep it the same?
Will it cost less to maintain and run these servers now? You haven't answered that at all.

The only thing that keeps people who are not personally your friends from caring whether your business survives or not is precisely because Caledon is special, you have built something special. LL is into giving people who build special SL things, special deals at the moment - why should you not get a special deal too? Nothing wrong with that, as long as it is on the basis of what you have built and not because you personally cannot afford the increase or because someone has one of these "special" sims.

This is not all about you Desmond.

I think you also missed the post where I said a phase in period was just dandy, I also asked you what period you think you might need to get out of the grandfathering trap.

Really you probably need to get over this whole oldies with perks thing because not all oldies own class 4's.

That is for LL to decide, they decided that the sailing sim people were special, Adam Zarius is special, there are others. Why not Caledon?

We are in agreement that USD195 would be better for all, no doubt about it.
Generally I agree with the premise that all tier charges are too high.
However I am realistic, they are far more likely to do away with grandfathered sim prices than lower tier for all and in the absence of that I would say that USD295 for all full sim estates is better than keeping grandfathering for some arbitrary collection of sim owners.

If the intent is to honour oldbies then cut a deal with the oldbies or have an oldie program with benefits. I will say again, not all class 4's are in the hands of oldbies.

Perhaps, perhaps not - really it will come down to what LL believes. I am not actually convinced 100% that keeping grandfathered sims at their present tier does help LL. The only increased cost is amongst resident anyway. Really LL only get the guarantee that those sims are not every likely to be abandoned. Is that worth losing USD100/sim/month?

LL have just stated that all class 4's will be upgraded to class 5's soon-ish and at that point all sims will be equal. The way LL statement is worded, is that nobody will know for sure they are on class 6 hardware going forward, unless some special people get the nod and the word.

They're not losing $100 per sim per month. They're making $100 less per sim per month than a full sim, but they're making more per month than if they didn't have that sim rented at all.

OK, yes my bad on the wording, they are making USD100 less than they could. Would it really mean that those who have them would not be on full price sims though? Maybe some but would all 2000 sims be returned? I seriously doubt it.

I think it is unlikely they will do away with the existing grandfathered sims, but very likely they will restrict it in some way to either block transfer of the rate or restrict the rate to accounts created before a certain date. I know there are plenty of grandfathered sims owned by newer accounts, anyone can buy one who ponies up the cash and wants to deal with the lower performance. That is an argument to take up with the Lab rather than telling older sim owners how self-involved they are. You're entire argument so far is that it is unfair that some people pay less because they bought at an earlier, cheaper rate. That isn't a logical argument, and if it is I want someone to get me some Apple stock at 2002 prices.

You haven't provided any justification about why someone who purchased at the old tier rate should have to now pay the new tier rate. There has always been the ability for class 4 sim owners to upgrade to class 5 and receive the benefits of better hardware, Wilde did as noted earlier in the thread. LL is now not offering, they are upgrading the sims whether we like it or not, for their benefit.

In my opinion, you're on solid ground with a complaint that grandfathered tier rates should be non-transferable but on shaky ground with a complaint that older sims purchased pre-Dec 06 should be forced up to the current tier rate.

Oh but I have. The question isn't if they should remain at the current pricing but if it makes sense to have them still at a special pricing. In the past it was for a reason, class 4's sucked compared to class 5's. Now that is at and end and the justification is that the class 5's are all going to cost the same to maintain and run and everyone is going to get the same benefits - why should there be a difference?

Even by your own argument, people who upgraded then had to pay USD295, why? They were getting better performance. so there was a difference, a difference that will shortly no longer exist.

EDIT:
I guess to answer your question more succinctly but with another question, "What has purchase price got to do with tier rate?" I remember sims being sold by LL at USD1695, then at USD1000 all for the same tier. Second hand sims are sold at a variety of prices that are everything to do with what value add the residents can give them but they are all at USD295 if they are a full sim. Why should class 5's that were class 4's be different now?

Many of them, yes.

Probably not, but that's just one extreme possibility... the real question is "would the immediate and long term reduction in sims be enough that Linden Labs makes less net profit overall?", and only Linden Lab knows the answer to that one. We can only guess based on their actions. Which happen to be... to keep the grandfathering after transfer.

You knew I would ask for this didn't you? Can you back this up with something more solid? Or is it just your Ferret-Sense?

Agreed, it could end up generating just as much of a bad feel if they keep it though. There is already some unhappiness about it on the blog comments.
How far that will spread is anyone's guess.

My opinion comes down to this:

Special treatment is fine as long as it isn't arbitrary, especially if it is because LL loves having your business or you build something that they consider adds significantly to SL.
Very few businesses have a flat fee structure.

If all class 4's today were owned by oldbies today and had given as a reward for being a long term customer and then upgraded for the same price, I would be OK with that if LL said it suited them to keep it that way, but it is not the case. Anyone can own them and for those who came into possession of them, there is no reason to keep rewarding them and as far as rewards go, there are better ways to implement such a thing.