It wasn't a Europe vs America "My Dad is bigger than your Dad" spat.
And? What does that have to do with it?
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-04-2007 14:02
And? What does that have to do with it? |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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10-04-2007 14:05
And? What does that have to do with it? It means that when you're quoting a poster who is belittling Europeans over the VAT issue that you're missing the point that ageplay debate was not just about European law and that LL's response went over and above European law anyway. |
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Seola Sassoon
NCD owner
Join date: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,036
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10-04-2007 14:27
True. Yes, but those get buried under all the new people that don't bother to read the entirety of the morass of threads and then come out with a fresh version of the same complaints - many of them being against VAT's applicability. What she said. _____________________
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I saw a commercial for an above-ground pool. It was thirty seconds long. You know why? Because that's the maximum amount of time you can depict yourself having fun in an above-ground pool - M.H. You know, I'm sick of following my dreams, man. I'm just going to ask where they're going and hook up with 'em later. - M.H. |
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Incanus Merlin
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Join date: 12 Apr 2007
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10-04-2007 14:33
I think that for the most part it's a case of people making opportunistic arguments -- that is, when I want X, I will make argument Y about the law, and when I want Y, I will make argument X. Of course this creates inconsistencies, but in my experience people are more than willing to make inconsistent arguments if they can get their way in substance in the end. Lurking behind this is a broader issue of broader norms. Do the EU's laws and norms apply outside the EU? Doe the US's norms apply outside the US? Internet services are kind of a "tweener" in that everything is certainly subject to US law because the servers are in the US and LL is in the US, but many countries take the view that it is also subject to the laws where the keyboard is. When it comes to Europe and the US, this kind of approach leads to endless, endless conflicts because our legal, tax, regulatory systems are *very* different. So it leads to contradictions. Both Americans and Europeans are "dug in" to some degree about the legitimacy of their own approach, and to be honest it's well known now that Washington and Brussels are engaged in a broader "competition" globally about which standards will apply more generally around the world. So it's not surprising at all to see some of these tensions and conflicts popping up in the forums when the contradictions inherent in trying to comply with very different cultural, legal and regulatory systems begin to have an effect on the ground, at the level of the users. /me back from the pub where I had several for Brenda  An excellent post Victorria. Inc _____________________
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Brenda Connolly
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10-04-2007 14:37
/me back from the pub where I had several for Brenda An excellent post Victorria. Inc Agreed. And thank you, Inc.  _____________________
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-04-2007 14:49
It means that when you're quoting a poster who is belittling Europeans over the VAT issue that you're missing the point that ageplay debate was not just about European law and that LL's response went over and above European law anyway. When did I ever say that? Can I get a key to the secret forums where I actually said that stuff? |
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
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10-04-2007 15:02
When did I ever say that? Can I get a key to the secret forums where I actually said that stuff? No it's locked! I said it, not you! You were asking what it had to do with anything. I was pointing out that Amy's little tirade was aimed strictly at Europeans. |
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Fluf Fredriksson
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Join date: 8 Feb 2007
Posts: 248
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10-04-2007 15:33
The main issue is the law, but that's not something we can complain to LL about. |
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Colette Meiji
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Join date: 25 Mar 2005
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10-04-2007 17:15
Well .. in the UK .. advertising a misleading price (as they still are doing) or changing a quoted price after agreement (during a billing cycle). Is a criminal offence. Then call the cops. Really. Or is it more a thing you can sue over? In which case for almost everyone its not enough money to sue for. |
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JayDee Unknown
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Join date: 13 Nov 2005
Posts: 175
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10-04-2007 22:24
Then call the cops. Really. Or is it more a thing you can sue over? In which case for almost everyone its not enough money to sue for. It is a thing you would have to sue over. No one in their right mind would do that though. 15 to 25% increase in a monthly payment is pocket change compared to what a international lawsuit would cost. If they really wanted to push the issue they probably could get the government to make the lawsuit but not sure they would go for it if LL has a good rebuttal. Which they do if they actually been covering VAT all this time. The worst crime is the immediate pricing issue. That would just come down to a fine probably. If they even pursued it. |
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Dagmar Heideman
Bokko Dancer
Join date: 2 Feb 2007
Posts: 989
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10-04-2007 23:19
As mentioned, the EU _have_ discussed how to enforce this. And a method they actually proposed would be this: if LL didn't collect VAT, then European users would be free to CopyBot anything they found in-world that was made by American users. If a US user tried to sue, the EU police and courts would tear the lawsuit up, saying "If you won't respect our laws, we won't respect yours." Now, as I said before this has never actually happened, but it was what they were planning to do according to the documentation on the E-business directive debate. (It was also considered that investing in such a business could be made a crime for EU investors, which given that the LSE is kinda big, could hurt.) Lol. Why would Linden Lab care about a lawsuit of one if its players against another of its players? They have no economic stake in the outcome either way. Are you saying the EU is stupid enough to believe that would be an effective remedy if LL chose not to collect VAT? The real remedy is that LL has money parked in a bank account in the UK which could be seized. |
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Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
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10-04-2007 23:27
You notice that there's a new blog post about it, town hall on Monday, and they're postponing VAT till October 27th or something like that?
We won - a little. Broccoli _____________________
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Jig Chippewa
Fine Young Cannibal
Join date: 30 Oct 2006
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10-04-2007 23:29
Can I ask a question here without getting jumped on? I am curious - ho wmuch extra money will VAT cost the average player in UK? I am NOT living in UK so havent a clue - is it a huge amount per month?? From fuss I am thinking maybe extra 10 or 20 pounds??
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Broccoli Curry
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10-04-2007 23:36
Can I ask a question here without getting jumped on? I am curious - ho wmuch extra money will VAT cost the average player in UK? I am NOT living in UK so havent a clue - is it a huge amount per month?? From fuss I am thinking maybe extra 10 or 20 pounds?? VAT is 17.5% extra So your $40 tier becomes $47. The US$ > GB£ conversion is irrelevant, as is the conversion to any currency. An increase of 17.5% is still 17.5%. On an island, $295 a month has gone from £148 to £174 ($347). Granted, most people on $5 or $10 tier won't notice that much of a difference, but the *principle* of having to pay a tax on "virtual stuff" from a foreign company is just so very wrong and against the concept of what the internet stands for. Broccoli _____________________
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Colette Meiji
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10-04-2007 23:40
Well sounds like the European Union has been collecting VAT on Physical Imports for years. And becuase partial remittance is availible only if costs of production take place in the EU - It amounts to a stealth Tariff.
So the Real change is the fact that they are starting to enforce the VAT on internet services where there is no physical "import" After a little googling it seems that Linden Labs isn't the only online business affected, pressure is being exerted to close "loopholes" where companies are avoiding the VAT. So basically since the EU is imposing this tariff the end result of higher prices shouldn't be surprizing. That is what Tariffs do, raise prices on imports- which SL basically is. Since the EU competition for SL is less apealing to many Europeans - this is going to hurt those in the EU. And becuase it will mean they have less money to spend in SL, it will cuase some slowdown in the whole SL economy. |
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Mephisto Offcourse
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Join date: 19 Aug 2007
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10-04-2007 23:42
For the UK, VAT is 17,5% (19% for Germany) on the following payments:
• Premium account payments • Purchases from the Land Store • Land use fees (tier) • Private Region fees • Land auctions • LindeX transaction fees |
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Denise Bonetto
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Join date: 31 Jan 2007
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10-04-2007 23:53
Then call the cops. Really. Or is it more a thing you can sue over? In which case for almost everyone its not enough money to sue for. Sue? no, you wouldn't have to do that, all you would have to do is make a complaint to the Trading Standards. _____________________
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Denise Bonetto
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10-05-2007 00:13
Can I ask a question here without getting jumped on? I am curious - ho wmuch extra money will VAT cost the average player in UK? I am NOT living in UK so havent a clue - is it a huge amount per month?? From fuss I am thinking maybe extra 10 or 20 pounds?? It depends on how much land you buy/own. I have 1/4 sim for my shop. Before the VAT added I needed to make $85 sales a month to cover it, now I have to make an extra $15. I can't cover that cost by putting my prices up in a global market. While mine may not be a huge difference, for an island owner renting out to pay the costs they will need to find an extra $52 from their renters, they are going to find it hard against non EU island owners. I very much doubt you could cover your tier anymore as profit margins in SL aren't very big to start with. I am not sure how Europeans can compete in the land market anymore, they have to pay extra for both purchasing the sims in the first place and then the extra tier. _____________________
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Fluf Fredriksson
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Join date: 8 Feb 2007
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10-05-2007 00:23
Sue? no, you wouldn't have to do that, all you would have to do is make a complaint to the Trading Standards. |
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Cherry Czervik
Came To Her Senses
Join date: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 3,680
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10-05-2007 04:48
I'm just glad my island lands are owned by non-EU (she's using that very fact as a selling point, and good for her). Otherwise, the difference in VAT would be almost as much as the whole of the tier for my mainland.
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Bianca Kendall
Registered User
Join date: 26 Jul 2006
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10-05-2007 06:17
How will VAT affect the mega land barons from the EU such as Anshe Chung. Do these folks have special deals with SL such that SL can't raise their rate Anshe Chung is based in China. Hence, no problem for her. |
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Broccoli Curry
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Join date: 13 Jun 2006
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10-05-2007 06:27
Anshe Chung is based in China. Hence, no problem for her. It should be. Linden Lab is an american company, apparently charging VAT to European users because it's based on the location of the service received, not provided. Therefore, if ACS is providing services to a European user, under the very same laws, they should be charging European users VAT for renting land from them, and passing the VAT back to Europe in the same way that Linden Lab are apparently forced to. Broccoli _____________________
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Ann Launay
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Join date: 8 Aug 2006
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10-05-2007 06:27
For the UK, VAT is 17,5% (19% for Germany) on the following payments: • Premium account payments • Purchases from the Land Store • Land use fees (tier) • Private Region fees • Land auctions • LindeX transaction fees Odd...I see the LindeX transaction fees listed on the FAQ attached to the blog, but it isn't shown here: http://secondlife.com/corporate/vat.php _____________________
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Wulfric Chevalier
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Join date: 22 Dec 2006
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10-05-2007 06:41
Odd...I see the LindeX transaction fees listed on the FAQ attached to the blog, but it isn't shown here: http://secondlife.com/corporate/vat.php And the blog says: One of the most interesting questions is about why we don’t charge VAT on L$ purchases on the LindeX. The LindeX is a marketplace where Residents can buy and sell L$ from and to each other. Because Linden Lab merely facilitates the transaction, we do not assess VAT on the purchase. Consumers are not normally responsible for collecting and remitting VAT between each other, but your situation may vary and you should consult a tax professional. Have LL ever made a major announcement without contradicting themselves? |
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Brenda Connolly
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10-05-2007 06:44
And the blog says: Have LL ever made a major announcement without contradicting themselves? No!..I mean...Yes.... _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |