Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

The Nanny State

Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
08-11-2008 01:56
From: Yumi Murakami
The problem is that group 1 are much more important to the in-world economy than group 4, because group 1 are likely to be the ones who inject the most US$ into the economy. All four groups may buy land and pay tier, but group 1 is the one most likely to be paying someone _else's_ tier too.
This is correct, and it takes scores or hundreds of Group 1 residents to support a single member of group 2. But their importance is to the in-world economy, not to LL's revenue.

LL only gets revenue if people pay tier, are premium members, or contribute to L$ sinks that end up generating buys on the LindeX. Sure, a vibrant in-world economy draws in new residents who will do these things, but for LL's business it really doesn't matter which of these Groups to which a resident belongs. What matters is that they either own land, or cause somebody else to own land, in order to generate tier revenue. The whole rest of the economy is noise to LL's bottom line.

Hence, LL's whole business is optimizing tier revenue by getting people to hold virtual land for homes and businesses. What is the biggest threat to that? Anything that disrupts the perception that virtual land is worth holding--or that it is "land" at all. (Stand next to a 60m tall "tower" of particle-spewing "advertisement" and say that with a straight face. But I digress.)

*Of course* they need to offer zoned mainland. And it's not about how much they can get at auction--that's noise, too. It's about being able to sell the damned stuff at all.
Bartlebus Baxton
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
08-11-2008 02:14
As often happens (it seems to me at least), a pretty straightforward discussion goes down in flames because it seems people just can't stop themselves adding the pejorative epithet.

1. "Disney PG"
2. "consumer masses"
3. ok not an epithet but the "mercenary objective"

Obviously any attempt at zoning may or may not have a "cynical" economic motive as well as simply being an attempt (however successful) to improve everyone's quality of life.

Either way, my view is that LL didn't miraculously devise a new and revolutionary economic paradigm along with the building tools and avatar sliders.

LL has to operate within a nasty capitalist market (or whatever you want to call it) environment, and to be honest in SL we operate in the same way.

I'll be the first on board if someone devises and wants to experiment in SL with a new economic model, but I've not seen one offered yet. Most "creatives" I've met, seem to be focusing on the heady day they can open their first shop.

I admire and will always support the creativity within SL, however pure creativity and its motivations are very difficult to define.

In my naive little way, I've always prefered to think of SL as a hotbed of "innovation" which by its definition only happens when a creation/invention is sent out into the world and is used/put into practice, normally at a price and generating a revenue.

In this context then (and I agree it's only my view), Yumi's analysis is right. The future of LL, SL and the innovation within does depend on the nasty "mercenary objective" and those leminglike consumer masses.

Anyone with a better plan, please step forward.. I would really be genuinely interested.

B
Bartlebus Baxton
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
08-11-2008 02:32
From: Qie Niangao
This is correct, and it takes scores or hundreds of Group 1 residents to support a single member of group 2. But their importance is to the in-world economy, not to LL's revenue.

LL only gets revenue if people pay tier, are premium members, or contribute to L$ sinks that end up generating buys on the LindeX. Sure, a vibrant in-world economy draws in new residents who will do these things, but for LL's business it really doesn't matter which of these Groups to which a resident belongs. What matters is that they either own land, or cause somebody else to own land, in order to generate tier revenue. The whole rest of the economy is noise to LL's bottom line.

Hence, LL's whole business is optimizing tier revenue by getting people to hold virtual land for homes and businesses. What is the biggest threat to that? Anything that disrupts the perception that virtual land is worth holding--or that it is "land" at all. (Stand next to a 60m tall "tower" of particle-spewing "advertisement" and say that with a straight face. But I digress.)

*Of course* they need to offer zoned mainland. And it's not about how much they can get at auction--that's noise, too. It's about being able to sell the damned stuff at all.



Hi Qie,

It pains me to say this (being the troll that I am), as usual I find myself agreeing with you.. for the most part :)

I'll admit I'm one of those nasty suited, mercenary types in RL, so I've often wondered how to get a look at any LL accounting info.

May I ask where you get the income stats from, because I'd genuinely like a look?

From my perspective though, not based on any great mass of research, it seems that LL is actually positioning themselves so that they don't depend on a retail approach to generating cash at all.

What I mean is that it appears, given many of their initiatives and positioning, that they mean to move away from making money from end users like us, and towards acting as a "hub" to more stand alone grids hosted by other organisations.

The recent big noise over the successful TP between SL and an IBM grid being just one example.

This might explain a wee bit, the move to zoning, it makes selling zones off to 3rd parties a little easier, because you can segment the interests of your target market.

What do you think?

B
Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
08-11-2008 08:05
From: Qie Niangao
...Weedy suggested on the Jack thread that it may be time to just nuke the Mainland and start over. I read that post as a desperate plea of a resident, but you know... I'm beginning to think it may be the smart business move.

Sorry, Sansara. Better luck next time. :(


Nuke that wretched hive of scum and villainy? Great! Uh...wait...Hey, *I'M* on the mainland! The Hangout is on the mainland! Abbott's and a lot of other favorite places are on the mainland.

Nooooooo..... :eek:

/me runs to SL Exchange to look for Fallout Shelters.
_____________________
It's still My World and My Imagination! So there.
Lindal Kidd
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
08-11-2008 08:19
I think the only thing that has been proven to be really objectionable is ad-farms. Aesthetics for residential zones, however, should be off limits. The newbie learning to build on his/her land shouldn't have to fear if their first attempts with a crappily made home is not up to snuff according to the neighbor with the uber-expensive gothic castle. I don't mind mainland's diversity so long as it's not abused and we can respect it. I'm mildly optimistic that Jack sees it this way.

The problem is really complex, when you start looking at club activity. Where should they go, how many resources should they be allowed to take up?
_____________________
Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!

House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60

http://cristalleproperties.info
http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog
Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
08-11-2008 08:23
I went to stay with friends over the weekend, and they live in a 'housing estate' built on the outskirts of the city, they have a few of them, they are all partly in the country and surrounded by fields and trees etc, but here are no shops or places for social activities and everyone hates living there.
_____________________
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
08-11-2008 08:26
From: Dekka Raymaker
I went to stay with friends over the weekend, and they live in a 'housing estate' built on the outskirts of the city, they have a few of them, they are all partly in the country and surrounded by fields and trees etc, but here are no shops or places for social activities and everyone hates living there.

RL? And if that is the case, why do they hate it? And how old are these people? In SL, everything is a TP away so there is no "commute time" so you can have your country home and be in the city in an instant.
_____________________
Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!

House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60

http://cristalleproperties.info
http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog
Dekka Raymaker
thinking very hard
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 3,898
08-11-2008 08:29
From: Cristalle Karami
RL? And if that is the case, why do they hate it? And how old are these people? In SL, everything is a TP away so there is no "commute time" so you can have your country home and be in the city in an instant.

Yes RL the City is Peterborough in England, all ages, it's really godless though, I'd rather be dead than live there, I wanted to be dead after 24 hours, all amenities are a 10 to 15 minute car drive away.

If they had this in SL I guess I would want to be dead in 10 minutes than be there.
_____________________
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
08-11-2008 08:44
From: Dekka Raymaker
Yes RL the City is Peterborough in England, all ages, it's really godless though, I'd rather be dead than live there, I wanted to be dead after 24 hours, all amenities are a 10 to 15 minute car drive away.

If they had this in SL I guess I would want to be dead in 10 minutes than be there.

Sounds like you all have deeper issues.
_____________________
Affordable & beautiful apartments & homes starting at 150L/wk! Waterfront homes, 575L/wk & 300 prims!

House of Cristalle low prim prefabs: secondlife://Cristalle/111/60

http://cristalleproperties.info
http://careeningcristalle.blogspot.com - Careening, A SL Sailing Blog
Bartlebus Baxton
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
08-11-2008 08:45
From: Dekka Raymaker
Yes RL the City is Peterborough in England, all ages, it's really godless though, I'd rather be dead than live there, I wanted to be dead after 24 hours, all amenities are a 10 to 15 minute car drive away.

If they had this in SL I guess I would want to be dead in 10 minutes than be there.


Ok, I'll admit that Peterborough isn't one of the more sought after places to live in the UK, but I know a few people who seem to like living there..:)

I do worry about your mental stability though Dekka. Perhaps the authorities should confiscate any sharp items along with your tie and laces.

Horror of horrors, a 10 minute drive to amenities.. dear Lord there's nothing to live for..!
Drongle McMahon
Older than he looks
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 494
08-11-2008 08:45
From: Bartlebus Baxton
...the pejorative epithet.
2. "consumer masses"
3. ok not an epithet but the "mercenary objective"
Apologies. I should be more careful. I did not intend either as perjorative. Mercenary = "motivated solely by financial gain"; a perfectly acceptable approach to SL, given reasonable constraints. "Consumer masses"? There are masses of them and they are consumers. I am one of them.

I am glad we both agree with Yumi on the central point.
Drongle McMahon
Older than he looks
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 494
08-11-2008 09:02
From: Bartlebus Baxton
What I mean is that it appears, given many of their initiatives and positioning, that they mean to move away from making money from end users like us, and towards acting as a "hub" to more stand alone grids hosted by other organisations.
A very good hypothesis. More or less an extrapolation of the private island model to larger operators? It would certainly make life easier for them.

However, the proposition, in Jack Lindens closing remarks on the mainland consultation thread, of the need for professional advertising model, might indicate an additional intention to establish an income stream based on advertising revenue, in common with other large successful internet services.
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
08-11-2008 09:06
From: Qie Niangao
This is correct, and it takes scores or hundreds of Group 1 residents to support a single member of group 2. But their importance is to the in-world economy, not to LL's revenue.


That's not quite true - it's all a big system. Many of the group 2 people only own land because the people in group 1 are paying their tier for them through the in-world economy. If the customers went away, they would give up their land.

You do occasionally get a merchant who focuses entirely on making money and doesn't worry about land. Enabran Templar, for example, made a lot of money selling robots but only put his business on a 512 to minimise his costs and maximise external profit (I only use him as an example because he was quite public about this on these fora).

But that seems to be very much the exception. Many more content creators I've seen have started by making items, earned money from it, gone on to buy land (usually islands), then created a theme build on the land - either for their own enjoyment or to rent out for money that's spent on the next island.
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
08-11-2008 09:15
From: Drongle McMahon
As a category 4 resident, I have to say I am not very happy with your suggestion that a lack of mercenary objective implies that my content is objectionable. Many of the worst eyesores are commercial premises, and the most abundant, huge floating spinning advertisment blocks, are entirely made and used by those seeking to take real money out of the SL economy.


I'm not saying that all "group 4" content is objectionable. What I'm saying is that most of the "legitimate" objectionable content would fall within that group. I was trying to respond to the comment that LL trying to zone the mainland would stifle individual creativity.

Obviously ad farms, created with the deliberate intent of disruption, are something that shouldn't be permitted. The problem is that - as those other posters have pointed out - when you start talking about "removing eyesores", you get into the much more dangerous territory of what to do with the people who have built ugly things on their own land with 100% good intentions - either because a) the builder/owner is fine with how they look, or b) the builder/owner lacks the skill/talent/time/ROI to do any better. (The most popular example of this was the "box club".)

These will overwhelmingly be group 4 builds. The group 4 people who can and do produce quality aren't any part of the problem.
Drongle McMahon
Older than he looks
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 494
08-11-2008 09:52
From: Yumi Murakami
I'm not saying that all "group 4" content is objectionable......These will overwhelmingly be group 4 builds. The group 4 people who can and do produce quality aren't any part of the problem.
Thank you for the calrification. We will have to agree to differ on this point though. My perception is that commercially motivated builds are as commonly objectionable as others. However, I am prepared to admit that it all depends on the bias/taste of perceiver. (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that).
Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
08-11-2008 11:15
From: Drongle McMahon
Thank you for the calrification. We will have to agree to differ on this point though. My perception is that commercially motivated builds are as commonly objectionable as others. However, I am prepared to admit that it all depends on the bias/taste of perceiver. (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that).


Bulids that are "commercially motivated" in the sense that the service being sold is the REMOVAL of the build is clearly objectionable.

However, builds that are "commercially motivated" in the sense that the build is being sold to people who choose to purchase it because they WANT to make use of it are, _generally_ less objectionable in terms of "ugliness" than others. This is simply because, if it's low quality it doesn't sell, it thus it tends to get removed, or at least not to show up in as many places.

Of course there is the issue of "objectionable content", such as expertly built d***ett items that are sold, but that's a whole other issue beyond the "ugliness" problem (and probably brings back the "do we need a PG/M/XXX distinction" argument).
Aeslyn Dae
over and out
Join date: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 453
08-11-2008 12:21
From: Drongle McMahon
However, the proposition, in Jack Lindens closing remarks on the mainland consultation thread, of the need for professional advertising model, might indicate an additional intention to establish an income stream based on advertising revenue, in common with other large successful internet services.


That conjures up the awful scenario of being subjected, mid teleport, to ghastly "now a word from today's sponsor" screens and the destination taking suspiciously longer to contact...

--
Aes
Drongle McMahon
Older than he looks
Join date: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 494
08-11-2008 13:38
From: Aeslyn Dae
That conjures up the awful scenario of being subjected, mid teleport, to ghastly "now a word from today's sponsor" screens and the destination taking suspiciously longer to contact...
I trust that it would not be so intrusive. They would have to find the tolerability limit for it to work. It's only a guess anyway. No need for anyone to worry.
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
08-11-2008 13:49
_____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
Reynard Constantine
Registered User
Join date: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 1
08-12-2008 10:52
From: Yumi Murakami
Bulids that are "commercially motivated" in the sense that the service being sold is the REMOVAL of the build is clearly objectionable.

However, builds that are "commercially motivated" in the sense that the build is being sold to people who choose to purchase it because they WANT to make use of it are, _generally_ less objectionable in terms of "ugliness" than others. This is simply because, if it's low quality it doesn't sell, it thus it tends to get removed, or at least not to show up in as many places.

Of course there is the issue of "objectionable content", such as expertly built d***ett items that are sold, but that's a whole other issue beyond the "ugliness" problem (and probably brings back the "do we need a PG/M/XXX distinction" argument).


Two words - megaprim walls. Too many commercial clubs and malls use these as backgrounds and show a tall, ugly, unfinished side to the rest of the world. These seem to be on the increase lately and having a small plot up against one is a real bummer.
Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
08-12-2008 14:48
From: Yumi Murakami
I think to some extent this is being driven from within, by the effects of the SL economy. I mean, essentially we have:

1) The content consumers who want purely to pay money for the quality items on offer;

2) The professional content creators who want to sell their content for money, and who therefore are likely to focus on making the most popular content, because it will sell best;

3) The "for-the-love-of-it" content creators who create for the joy of it, and may/may not sell their work; these are also likely to focus on making the most popular content because many enjoy the attention and, since they love creating, creating anything is just as good;

4) The "casual/dreamer" creators who create things purely for their own use, often which is way outside the mainstream, and may or may not sell it, but who divide their time between creating their content and using it.

The problem is that group 1 are much more important to the in-world economy than group 4, because group 1 are likely to be the ones who inject the most US$ into the economy. All four groups may buy land and pay tier, but group 1 is the one most likely to be paying someone _else's_ tier too.

Group 1 are accustomed to using content made by groups 2 and 3, which may well be higher quality than that produced by group 4, because group 4 does not put all of its effort into content creation. As a result, what a group 4 person might consider their own, unique, original content is just seen as an eyesore by the group 1 person on the adjoining parcel - and economically, they _must_ be given higher priority, because they bring in more US$.

I'm not sure quite what can be done about that other than trying to find a way of making the market more flexible so that the group 4's can join one of the other groups...

You missed group 5, the GoldFarmers who don't give a crap what happens inworld or what it looks like as long as their Bots and Adfarming balances keep pumping money into their bank account I suspect we have more of them than Group 1's, because it's free to do so.
_____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]

Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)

Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
1 2 3