What makes roaming the grid a challange?

In the latest Havok4 blog post, I asked if they were _also_ going to fix some of the problems that make roaming the grid in vehicles painful..

Who says Lindens don't read the blog comments??? Sidewinder replied..


So.. Here's that thread.

Personally, I find it annoying that you can't get parcel details outside your own sim - it'd be nice if a script could see that the parcel you're about to cross into has ban lines up.

I've also seen strange (and not consistant) behavior crossing a sim line into a parcel that is full. I can figure out a test case for this but if somebody else has already one, that would be helpful.

Of course high-prim sim crossings can be painful. I don't think that's specific to vehicles, though.

Anybody else have issues? Ones that are already JIRA'ed would be great...

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/me edits to add JIRA issues..

SVC-22 : Parcel restrictions inappropriately applied to vehicles on border crossings.

SVC-1070 : Vehicles are in some cases counted against parcel prim limits.

SVC-221 : llGetParcelFlags(), llScriptDanger(), and llGetLandOwnerAt() should be able to peek accross sim boundaries

VWR-1625 : If you fly in a vehicle over land that has maxed object limit you are ejected from vehicle and stuck in animation

MISC-283 : LL needs to allow scripting on *ALL* Linden water parcels.

MISC-326 : Governor Linden owned parcels do not have uniform parcel settings which allows griefers to create parcel infringing and other objectionable objects that are not affected by auto-return

MISC-602 : Linden-Created Road Building Group
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Sim crossings, of course and the issue of hitting parcels that are full. The banline issue is being discussed and the best suggestion from the standpoint of someone in a vehicle would be to make them visible on the minimap so someone in a vehicle could see them and avoid them. More open water sims would be nice for sailing, but I don't expect that LL will want the expense of open Linden Land in terms of policing it and server space. That points to the issue of navigation on the mainland being really choppy. It's hard to get around because of banlines, instant orbiting security orbs, etc. I don't think LL can do anything about that - people have the right to limit access to their land.

I'd have to say it was the nice bouncy pinging about when crossing sims still.

I realise I have been a homebody in one format or another for too long Meade. I'll make a point of doing some field research for you tonight whilst I have chance.

I think the ease of sim-border crossings and the ability to at least see ban lines are the main issues.

Not sure if it can be coded, but I'd rather see ban lines move an avatar/vehicle UP rather than back across a border. When crossing into another sim, it takes time to "stabilise". I can't remember the Linden that talked to me about this, but they recommended staying in any one sim for 20 seconds or so to let the data handoff correctly. Getting bounced right back over a sim-border is counter-productive to this.

A better effect would be to allow people to see banned parcels color coded on the mini-map. Making this a CHOICE, not a default. So travelers can see where they can, and can not go, but not interfering with other's mini-maps. It might be a good idea to tie this to ACCESS on the About Land, also allowing for landowners to set this manually to denote scripted security systems. The access restricion boxes should put up the color codes by default for those that select to see them.

While not related to vehicles, I think removal of avatar flight height would be benificial. While some may say to keep the n00bs on the ground, the amount of ban lines that bounce "No Payment" accounts is a bit bad. Keeping above 50m when you can only fly 100m is somewhat silly. Not that there are not enough free flight assist prims out there, but why run another script when the system can be changed to handle it?

Not a direct issue, but related to travel. Instead of constantly loading the World Map, have it load once, with a "refresh" button included. Limit the "refreshes" to a resonable time. To prevent constant pinging of the main server. This would let people look at and explore via the map easier. Personally, I would not have to refresh but around every month or so. Landbarrons, more often, but ineither case, would reduce load of loading on every time a map is opened.

Get people that understand how prims effect vehicles to build the roads. Bad segment connections, land through the roads etc cause issues when traveling by land vehicles. Those rounded stones for "curbs" in coutnry settings look kewl, but are a complete pain in the rear end if you happen to bump into them. Havok4 may look at them differently, but as they stand now, they cause more havok *grins* than they help.

Along with the above, looking at the lay of the land in respect to laying out roads would be helpful too. Sometimes hills go down at a sharp angle only to go right into a flat expanse. The resutlting angle at the road intercections can "Saddlebag" a vehicle. In SL, this results in prims getting "stuck" in one anther, needing to edit the vehicle to raise it up, or rez a new one.

~Jessy

ALso if they are Linden roads make sure each sim has a small land area that will allow rezzing of the vehincle. I used to love going cruising around SL on my motorcycle but the real challenge was finding somewhere adjacent to the road to rez it.

or better yet set the roads ot allow rezzing with like a 2 minute object return set.

And for heaven's sake TURN ON THE MUSIC on Linden roads!!!

It is soooooooo boring driving without sound. I'd even rather listen to the LL radio (they do have one, or did). It might also be a good way to keep people updated on things throughout the grid and SL as a whole.

~Jessy

and remove the linden trees in the middle ... THE MIDDLE ... of linden roads.

Wait - there's Linden Radio?

Please, oh please, please please pleasepleasepleaseplease...can I have a talk show? Give me one hour once a week. I promise, so help me Wayne Newton that I'll be funny an interesting. I'm good for funny and interesting for up to 1.5 hours per week, and I'll spend a whole hour of my quota on Linden Radio. I won't even solicit naked pictures. (Yes, I will)

Oh, pleaseeeee. I'll send my resume. I have a decent voice and I only stutter when I'm tired or when I'm well rested. I won't cuss. Not even a little. Ok, maybe a little. But I won't use the C word or the F word. Unless an adfarmer calls in. Let's face it they have it coming. I can do interviews of really interesting people like the guy who invented the Business in a Box, or the leader of the Gorean Council or...or...Chris Norse. Maybe not Chris. He banned me from his land and muted me by accident after that thing with the furry and the propane tank and the steampunk whistling gear driven dart gun (really, how was I supposed to know that propane is flammable?).

Seriously. How do I get on Linden Radio.

I will tune in to this show. If you've a petition or JIRA entry I will sign or vote as appropriate.

-Atashi

I want to be able to cross a sim border without me or my vehicle falling apart, and without floating out of control across the whole sim until the server drops me where I'm supposed to be. I also usually lose most function of the vehicle when crossing a border. It's really annoying to have to stay strictly in one sim, especially since most vehicles go fast enough to cross a sim in a second or two. The vehicles I've made are intentionally slow to compensate, but it takes away from the effect of, say, my dragon saddle, when you can't fly very fast or very far. And god forbid you cross a sim line - your head might fall off and your rider's hair will end up stuck to their butt.

Make sim crossings work, Allow vehicles to be rezzed on roads, remove trees & shrubs from the roads(in some cases using all the pirims preventing vehicle entry), replace missing roads surfaces. Don't let parcel prim limits effect vehicles when they are over say 200m

I agree with the one about turning on scripting in all open water sims. It's really annoying to lose all control of your boat. The newer continents seem to have this problem.


Perhaps they can do something about opening up the waterways between various bodies of water on the mainland and other continents.

I don't even use vehicles, and I still love the idea of showing bans on the mini-map. Ideally, there'd be three colors -- one for banned parcels, one for public-use land, and one for not-banned-but-still-private land (i.e., you can fly over, just don't disturb).

I'd actually love to use a vehicle, but two things have stopped me from really trying. One is hearing all the horror stories here from other vehicle users, and the other is knowing that I wouldn't be able to see anything anyway -- I'd travel faster than the landscape would rez. But I doubt that's the kind of answer Sidewinder (or Meade!) wants.

Hmm most of my cars will rez the road fastenough to travel at half throttle through new sims, aside of the drop and pop rise when crossing sim boundries which I just ignore and hope there's no bend in the road.

Actually, for color-coding, I meant teh following:

BLUE - No Payment Info Banned.
YELLOW - Payment Info on File Banned (ie, only Payment Info Used allowed)
RED - Everyone banned. Access restricted to Group or to set individuals. This would also include land set to entry via buying a Pass.
ORANGE - Manual land setting for landowners. To denote the presence of a scripted security system.

Each color-coding should have a selection in Preferences (or another menu) for client-side viewing on the mini-map (or not to show).

Yes, Group Restricted land would show as red even to those in that group. Reasoning: It would take too much net time to continually ping the servers for a real time check. Also, Groups or individuals that are allowed access to certain plots, should know which plots they are allowed into. Same goes for the security systems.

EDIT I intentially left out any color-coding for "Banned by Name". If you get banned off a parcel by the landowner having to place your name on the land, I feel you should know about it anyway. If LL wants to be PC about it, they could include it in the RED color-coding.

~Jessy
PS It may help to get rid of that annoying cyan blue for your own prims on the mini-map, or at least make it a selection to see or not. I've never found a function for this, just an annoyance. Not part of this discussion though, except if the coders are going to play with the mini-map settings. Making all changes at once is easier than a little at a time.

Overcrowding seems to be the biggest problem for me. I recommend more free space between resident owned land. This will help to reduce network demand overall and also improve client frame rates.

Lately I'm arriving in an area and it's taking ages for the textures on all the rental apartment blocks to download.

Do they? It's not so much a right (nothing in SL really is) as something allowed and provided for with banlines. At some point LL decided "we'd rather people could restrict land access than that there were no obstructions to travel/exploration." Which they'll probably never change their minds on, but in theory there's nothing to stop them doing away with parcel access restrictions.

The problem with ban lines is that at any speed the vehicle passes through them while the driver bounces off. Then you usually end up having to relog, often lose your vehicle and have to search around for a place to rez a new one. It rather spoils the trip. If the vehicle bounced off as well and stayed with the av then they would not be such a problem.

/me ignores the umpteenth debate about the b-word being started up

Though I don't use any vehicles apart from my unicorn, I'd vote big-time for sim-crossing to be sorted out. Getting kinda fed up looking at the world from underground ye know.



I've found a very good function for this ..... finding my prims on neighbouring land

.

On the main map, have the option to show linden owned land a different color.
Similar to how you currently have the option to show for sale land yellow.

This will let you know where the roads are.

Oooooooooooooo!
- All that abandoned land being highlighted?

But yes, I know where most of the little Linder waterways are in Corsica - from the time of the auctions. Now it would be very tedious for a wanderer to find them.

I find that navigating in restricted channels, with one eye on minimap, to be a pain.

I'd love an option to render parcel boundaries at just under the level of my avatar. That way, whether flying high or on the water (20m above the 'ground' level) it would be very apparent where I was in relation to boundaries.
It would also assist building in the air.

Correct - in another thread I'm arguing that it isn't a "right". Banlines are not a right, they are something that LL allows. I used the word in its colloquial sense, not it's literal sense. I should have phrased it differently.

I don't have a problem with banlines in theory, I just want some warning before I hit them and I would like neighbors to be able to make them invisible so they don't have to look at them. I don't want to go where I'm not welcome, but it's not fair to make it hard for me to wander around where I am welcome. I'm just looking for a solution that keeps landowners happy, warns me about where I'm not wanted so I don't go there and still gives me the ability to fly, drive, sail, swim, or whatever where I am welcome to do it. Just trying to be fair is all. I don't think there's a perfect solution for everyone, but if there's a reasonable compromise, I'm for it.

/me pokes the thread to the top of the list, wondering if anybody else has anything to add before she writes up a summary for Sidewinder..

The single biggest problem I encounter is on grid crossings, suddenly sinking through the ground all the way to the gooey centre of the SL world. About 1 time in 10 or 1 time in 20 this results in a crash. I presume that the region handoff has failed but visually I see myself plumetting endlessly, unable to teleport or otherwise abort the descent.

Even the non-crashy region crossings are bumpy enough to jarr me out of my enjoyment - it's hard to get fully immersed in a plane or helicopter or balloon ride, when every 256 meters you get bounced around, drop a bit, snapped up, rubber banded and otherwise abused, before you are able to return to the next few seconds of calm flight.

The banlines don't actually bother me too much, I only use copyable vehicles so if I get bounced off and my vehicle is blown to smithereens I can just rez another and keep going.

-Atashi

Combine the way ban lines break things and grid/sim crossing.
Ban Lines do not show into adjoining parcels. If you attempt to cross a sim border into a plot that has ban lines set, you just get a message and brokenness. No warning whatsoever.

Just to be clear: This is in NO WAY a request to have ban lines show across sim boundaries.

Just get LL to replace the current access restriction system with something that:
1) is not visual griefing
2) is a little soft around the edges