Gambling by any other name

Well, there are a few different ways to look at it.

In some games, the wager is an integral component of the game. Poker is an example. Managing risk and reward though the size of the bet is simply part of the game, and the element of the game that makes it a skill game rather than a luck game. And the game isn't really about winning individual hands, but how well one does over the course of many hands (which also minimizes the luck element). Whether or not one cares about winning money, it's hard to have fun playing poker without the wager- even if it's penny ante, pieces of candy, or articles of clothing. The money or wager itself is not the important thing- the winnings or losses are a representation of the player's skill.

In other forms of gambling, there is probably a certain thrill to the risk of gaining or losing something valuable, independent of the game. I guess betting on horse races is like this. The serious horse race gamblers care less about the actual race, and more about whether they are losing this month's rent or striking it rich. I guess it's the same kind of thrill that daredevils have- the fact that one is risking one's life is a thrill on its own. I suspect that it's this sort of thrill that creates the problems with gambling addiction, and causes people to lose their family's houses, or get involved with loan sharks, or get involved in crime to pay off gambling debts.

Texas Hold'em Poker requires far far more skill than any of the so called "games of skill" that are allegedly Linden Lab approved and far less chance.

Regardless of the chance factor of the cards that are dealt (which one can calculate with fair degree of certainty for the purposes of valuing the long term risk/benefit of folding, calling or raising for each successive bet, preflop, flop, turn and river that one faces against other players), it is a player versus player(s) game so one can still win without the best hand by reading the playing style and betting patterns (and in real life physical behavior) of other players as well as by acting based on position in betting.

It is not mere chance that one sees familiar faces at all of the high stakes international hold'em poker tournaments or that these people are able to make 6 to 7 figures a year playing poker. Make no mistake, at the highest levels, poker is a very high skills game.

Every single game that is supposedly approved by Linden Lab clearly violates the written word of Linden Lab's anti-wagering policy. Most are ultimately nothing but slot machines. The only reason I can see that as to why they are tolerated is because they don't look like any traditional well known gambling game so perhaps Linden Lab doesn't believe that they will attract the scrutiny of the banks that are regulated under the UIGEA. One can only hope that they wont because if they do....

It seems that many agrees on that Zyngo isnt a Skill Game and it also seems that many people agree on that the gambling rule in SL is a joke. I have also found out that many people are mad on how things are in SL when it comes to gambling, and that it seem that if your a friends with Linden Labs, they seem to look a little between the fingers.

So why not do something about this.

A couple of month ago i tried to bring the subject with Zyngo up with the creator, he told me I could choose to 1, be stupid, or 2. be with the smart people.
Here, the smart people were the ones who kissed his ass, i later understood.

Well, I also found out that the Zyngo machines moved in "cycles" Sometimes they love you as a customer and sometimes they love the owner. So why not start a group that will inform you about this?

The members could in chat or notice tell everyone that "Hey! On *name* the machines seem to be a a good mood for payout" etc and of course also the other way around. When the machines only show devils, then the members could inform each other about that. You cant call it cheating, because Zyngo is a skill game and luck has nothing to do with it has it? I mean, if it was because of luck you won on Zyngo, it would be gambling and gambling isn't allow in SL, or is it?

It would take 1 week before the Game Places would stop using Zyngo, and it would not take much longer until Linden Labs is forced to decide what to do with it.

1) You get dealt random cards. (chance part 1)

2) You select a subset of cards to replace the ones you throw away(chance part 2)

to get more random cards that you don't see until you get them

3) You strategize your betting / behavior to get other players to "fold". (chance part 3)

how is taking a chance not chance? bluffing is taking a chance and so it betting to try and make someone change their bet..it's a gamble that they will or not.and you never know what they have till it's over.you lose half of your bluffing ability with online gambling.

i know nothing about Zyngo
slots are a game of chance and bingo is a game of chance too..so how can two games of chance make a game of skill?

They don't. You could probably train a monkey to master the skill set required to maximize possible return on the SL slot machines.

It may be taking a chance, but it's not determined by an objective random event nor a mathematically proven pseudo-random event generator.

Every time a pitcher chooses between a fast ball or a curve, he's taking a chance that the batter won't outguess him. Similarly for calling plays in football, or choosing between shooting or passing in baseball or hockey. If a chess player chooses to open with an unusual, but difficult opening, he's taking a chance that the other player won't know how to play against that opening. But we all agree that these are games of skill.

Most games involve a combination of skill and chance. Without chance, they're boring - e.g., tic-tac-toe. Even in chess, which is about as pure skill as you can get, players take chances. However, they don't all involve random events, or the random event may be considered negligible. (I don't know how chess tournaments choose who gets to play black or white; it might be random. While that may significant for particular pairings of players, it's accepted as not being a significant part of the outcome in general.)

Complete, rigorous definitions are difficult or impossible, which means that courts wind up making judgments, and different states can have different results about what's legal, even with similarly-worded laws. The mere fact that some skill is involved doesn't mean something is automatically legal in all states, and the mere fact that some randomness is involved doesn't mean that something is automatically illegal in all states. Because of the way the internet gambling law is written, LL should err on the side of banning things when there's a legitimate concern, but based on reports in this forum, they don't always do that.

you are playing the player..i am saying poker is a game of chance..it's all random events..wipe the slate clean and look at the game..the game itself is all chance.
i love cards myself and i hate that gambling left SL

there is skill to playing players you have played before but anyone could sit down and get a royal flush or full house or 4 aces and have a good night..
you won't ever have a good game going against bobby fischer in chess..or your team beating the Tennessee Titans.
but you could sit over from the world champion poker player and chance throw you an unbeatable hand more than once..
most online gambling you are playing a machine anyways..and not someone else..
i know SL poker was different than a lot of online gambling..
you sat at a table with other players and the tables delt the cards and stuff..but compare it to rl poker you really lose a lot of your rl player vs player advantage..

Yes, but what makes it "gambling" is the wagering with money part, and that is the primary concern addressed in the UIGEA. In fact, the word "skill" appears only ONCE in the entire act, and is directly tied to games like Fantasy Sports, where statistics are used to generate outcomes, not "chance".

For the vast majority of the Act, it goes after "wagering" as the primary definition of what constitutes "gambling". As such, even LL's policy is far too liberal, because they aren't banning all "wagering games" (in which there is ANY element of chance). So the "game of skill" dodge is just that; a dodge, and they are playing fast and loose with their credit card processors and the law itself.

My hope is that the volume of "residual gambling" in SL is very low; so low that it stays under the radar of their CCPs and the government. Otherwise, we'll all be in a world of hurt.

i still miss the casino we had at GOL that Dakota Neuman built..it was so huge and such a beautiful build..i think the biggest sized at the time..it was like one you would see in a james bond movie..
i think there was only one slot room which was upstairs..
it had rooms off to the side for each poker table so people could be alone with their group and play in their own rooms.
there were two main rooms of tables too..all those really nice poker tables..
there were a bunch of games there i didn't even know what they did but they all looked well made..

then we had the theater area where you had the big curtain and it would draw from both sides..opening night we had showgirls up there that looked like they were from las vegas ..so many feathers on them you could barely see their avatars all doing the the show dance in sync in one long line..
we even had cigarette girls walking around to each of the rooms..

it took up a whole sim ..i never played any of the games there but i used to go there and relax at the bar or walk around watching the people that did come and play..
then when it was time i would head back over to GOL3 and see everyone playing a sploder when they had this big beautiful casino just the next sim over lol

it never really did much in traffic so it was torn down months later...
still one of the prettiest build i remember..

But what makes it illegal is being in violation of other state or federal laws. The UIGEA doesn't try to define whether any particular wager is legal or illegal under the act. And some individual states do factor in skill.


They're not required to ban all games in which there's an element of chance. Strictly speaking, it's only if it's illegal in the state in which it's "initiated, received, or otherwise made". As a practical matter, they can't reliably track where the user is, so they pretty much have to assume the most restrictive state laws. Nevertheless, to the best of my knowledge, no state bans all wagering on a game in which there's an element of chance. I'm sure there are states where poker is legal precisely because of a finding of skill, but SL needs to ban it anyway, because there are other states in which it's not. On the other hand, I'd be surprised if there were any state in which it's illegal for me to bet on a game of chess in which I'm a player, notwithstanding the element of chance in determining which one of us plays white.

I don't believe that the "game of skill" argument has to be a dodge, but I do believe that it's being used as a dodge for the zyngo argument.

i agree it really was a big affect on sl too..
i hated to see those kind of games go because they added more excitement..sploders were fun because they had people that did not know each other playing together and meeting each other in fun..bingo..who doesn't like bingo? lol

it all comes down to this..if they cannot get to the tax or profit from it ..it's illegal because they are not getting any pie and they can't let anyone have any pie without them getting theirs..
maybe if they asked if we wanted to share instead of taking it all away we would give them some pie..Cause i LIKE PIE!! and now can't have any lol

That is irrelevant. There are states that do not, and since this in internet gambling, all that has to happen is the discovery of "illegal" gambling activities from someone in a state where it is prohibited, and LL loses their credit card processing providers. Period. Until such time as they have "cleaned it up" to prevent users from running afoul of it, NO ONE will be able to use their credit/debit/eft accounts to pay for tier, buy Lindens, or anything else. People want to talk about how bad the SL economy is now; just imagine how bad it will be then.

It's not far-fetched that it could happen, either. All it would take is some properly documented evidence that gambling is still going on; not hard to get that, and send it to the right people at the USAO or GlobalCollect. That's not hard, either.



No, but they are required to ban all games in which wagering and where the element of chance significantly affects the outcome to the point where the odds can be controlled, such as to "favor the house". Based on some state gambling laws, they may have to ban ANY kind of wagering, irrespective of the level of chance or skill involved. If there is a "wager" which has an associated risk of loss with a possibility of profit, then it falls afoul of the federal law.

Since they can't control which residents of which states where it is illegal have access to gambling establishments, they have to go with a blanket policy. That's why it specifically targets internet gambling, where there is no clear-cut way to determine otherwise.



Educate thyself: http://www.gambling-law-us.com

Quite a few states do not use the "Dominant Factor Test", and some don't even mention "chance" or "skill" at all. For example, Louisiana does not, and has provisions against internet gambling as well. Tennessee bans gambling where ANY element of chance is involved.



In chess, the "coin flip" (not necessarily using a coin, but any 50/50 selection method) has no significant bearing on the outcome of the match. Even still, states like Louisiana and Tennessee may prosecute wagering on it anyway.



Right. I never claimed it HAD to be, but most people are using it as one, in SL's case.

Again, it's not so much the issue of LL getting prosecuted for promoting internet gambling, but LL's CCP cutting them off so that THEY don't get prosecuted for handling gambling monies.

OMG you better hope the soda comes off my brand new 24" lcd flat panel dood

EDIT: The hypocritic elements of gaming laws make me sick... I'm going to the store to buy a Powerball ticket and forget about it

That minor element of skill involved in matching numbers is a non-issue with Zyngo (and a few similar games), since most I've seen now have an "autoplay" feature. It matches and clicks all the numbers for you... the only "skill" left, per se, is determining where to put the wild cards (jokers) and whether to fill a row before uncovering the score multiplier.

Anything with the majority of the outcome determined by a script is not skill, IMHO.

QFT. Perhaps the UIGEA will eventually get repealed or amended to actually make sense. The last thing the banking community needs now is the burden and cost of self-regulating under the UIGEA as the UIGEA regulations failed to clear up any of its issues or concerns.

In the interim, even if one concedes that SL slot machines are not likely to attract the scrutiny of the banking community, it still seems foolish to allow them, especially since the written policy of LL already prohibits them. What does Linden Lab really gain from all of it? Does slot machine income constitute a significant amount of the revenue generation to pay for tier in Second Life? Because otherwise I don't see the motivation to allow slot machines.

I don't think it's a matter of consciously allowing them, but rather not being willing to spend resources on hunting them down and eliminating them. I expect that if one is reported, it will be removed.

There may be some types of devices that will continue to be permitted because their initial analysis was wrong. Again, I think it's a matter of not wanting to invest the resources in fixing those mistakes. They probably figure that they can wait until the government and/or credit card companies tell them they need to put more energy into it.

It requires almost no effort at all since the games are explicity advertised in classifieds and search listings. That's like saying the police can't be bothered to arrest the murderer who is running around outside the station waving the bloody murder weapon screaming "I did it! I did it!"
It's not even that their initial analysis was wrong. Unless the governance and legal personnel are severely English impaired they simply flat out intentionally ignored the wagering policy and manufactured the skill exemption nonsense in direct defiance of the written policy.
There is no reason to think that the credit card companies will tell Linden Lab anything. Linden Lab is a drop in the ocean for them in terms of value versus risk. It is equally if not more probable that they will simply cut fund transfers off until Linden Lab proves compliance as they have already done to other sites.