Second Life Forums Archive - Very Interesting....

Tegg Bode

FrootLoop Roo Overlord

Join date: 12 Jan 2007

Posts: 5,707

08-04-2008 16:46

From: Trout Recreant

It depends on their state of residence. I think around 11 states have specifically outlawed any form of internet gambling. At the federal level, there's argument both ways, with the pro gambling people (of which I am one) saying no, and the feds saying yes. The feds can't actually point out any authority for their position, but they sure would like to.

The problem won't be for the US residents who gamble. Even in states where online gambling is explicitly prohibited, I am not aware of a single prosecution. The problem will be for LL's facilitation of unlicensed wagering. Arguments aside about whether they are doing that or not, the feds WILL give them more grief than they want. Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!??

If you were to walk into another grid based elswhere and gamble, LL's responsibility surely wouldn't be anymore than your ISP or Microsoft IE allowing you to gamble at a 2D
website. LL just supply a viewer and access like an ISP.

_____________________

Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]

Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107)

Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)

Ciaran Laval

Mostly Harmless

Join date: 11 Mar 2007

Posts: 7,951

08-04-2008 16:46

From: Trout Recreant

The problem will be for LL's facilitation of unlicensed wagering. Arguments aside about whether they are doing that or not, the feds WILL give them more grief than they want. Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!??

I think there's going to be something to put Linden Lab at arm's length from this if it ever comes to fruition, one is almost certainly going to be linked to IDV and I really wouldn't be surprised if another was that a third party company actually runs those sims so that they, rather than Linden Lab, face the heat.

PKR don't allow Americans to bet for any sort of real money.

TooHighA Price

Registered User

Join date: 3 Jun 2008

Posts: 21

08-05-2008 02:49

Just as an aside....The WTO ruled that the US ban on online-gaming was illegal under the WTO treaty, as it was plain protectionism (banning some companies in WTO member states from engaging in gambling with US customers, while allowing other forms of gaming in the US to be freely available).

Has anyone in the US followed up this story? Are there any changes in the US laws planned to comply with their treaty obligations, or are they just taking the view of 'so what' to their treaty obligations?

THAP

Dekka Raymaker

thinking very hard

Join date: 4 Feb 2007

Posts: 3,898

08-05-2008 02:58

From: Trout Recreant

Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!??

They could create specific islands for Casinos only, zoning coming to SL? They could call it Wonderland!

_____________________

Qie Niangao

Coin-operated

Join date: 24 May 2006

Posts: 7,138

08-05-2008 03:41

From: TooHighA Price

Has anyone in the US followed up this story? Are there any changes in the US laws planned to comply with their treaty obligations, or are they just taking the view of 'so what' to their treaty obligations?

Treaty obligations?! This is the WTO you're talking about here--every member state is in constant violation of one or another provision with one or another product or service, and just weighs the relative costs of counter sanctions. I mean, the entire planet's online gaming industry pales in comparison to a semicolon in the US Farm Bill or the corresponding EU agricultural protectionist policies.

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be anything more than OpenSims hosting unregulated gambling from wherever they think they can avoid prosecution by US or other nations that regulate (and tax) online gambling. And I suspect the EU reference is just a sop for the VAT discussion. The smart casino operator will stay the hell away from EU jurisdiction and set up shop somewhere without regulations, reciprocity, tax, or extradition treaties. Somewhere Caribbean, I'd suggest.

_____________________

Archived for Your Protection

Meade Paravane

Hedgehog

Join date: 21 Nov 2006

Posts: 4,845

08-05-2008 07:55

From: Qie Niangao

Anyway, I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be anything more than OpenSims hosting unregulated gambling from wherever they think they can avoid prosecution by US or other nations that regulate (and tax) online gambling..

I look forward to Chaos telling us how his credit card got hacked, again, after using it on some gambling-grid that he TPed to from SL..

_____________________

Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!!
- Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224
- If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in
- Click the "Vote for it" link on the left

Atashi Toshihiko

Frequently Befuddled

Join date: 7 Dec 2006

Posts: 1,423

08-05-2008 08:01

From: Russ Kanno

Sometimes I think the European billing department consists of one person sitting in a garage with a cellphone and a looseleaf notebook.

Oh, so you've already seen the office?

-Atashi

_____________________

Visit Atashi's Art and Oddities Store and the Waikiti Motor Works at beautiful Waikiti.

Sweet Primrose

Selectively Vacuous

Join date: 30 Nov 2006

Posts: 375

08-06-2008 00:35

Interesting.... so they seem to be planning different rules on what is permissable depending on the host country. I wonder what impact such a thing might have on OTHER currently (though not always) forbidden behavior in SL, such as differences in German and U.S. law on virtual representations of behavior that would in real life be illegal in both places.

Very Interesting....
Tegg Bode FrootLoop Roo Overlord Join date: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 5,707	08-04-2008 16:46 From: Trout Recreant It depends on their state of residence. I think around 11 states have specifically outlawed any form of internet gambling. At the federal level, there's argument both ways, with the pro gambling people (of which I am one) saying no, and the feds saying yes. The feds can't actually point out any authority for their position, but they sure would like to. The problem won't be for the US residents who gamble. Even in states where online gambling is explicitly prohibited, I am not aware of a single prosecution. The problem will be for LL's facilitation of unlicensed wagering. Arguments aside about whether they are doing that or not, the feds WILL give them more grief than they want. Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!?? If you were to walk into another grid based elswhere and gamble, LL's responsibility surely wouldn't be anymore than your ISP or Microsoft IE allowing you to gamble at a 2D website. LL just supply a viewer and access like an ISP. _____________________ Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan] Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107)
Ciaran Laval Mostly Harmless Join date: 11 Mar 2007 Posts: 7,951	08-04-2008 16:46 From: Trout Recreant The problem will be for LL's facilitation of unlicensed wagering. Arguments aside about whether they are doing that or not, the feds WILL give them more grief than they want. Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!?? I think there's going to be something to put Linden Lab at arm's length from this if it ever comes to fruition, one is almost certainly going to be linked to IDV and I really wouldn't be surprised if another was that a third party company actually runs those sims so that they, rather than Linden Lab, face the heat. PKR don't allow Americans to bet for any sort of real money.
TooHighA Price Registered User Join date: 3 Jun 2008 Posts: 21	08-05-2008 02:49 Just as an aside....The WTO ruled that the US ban on online-gaming was illegal under the WTO treaty, as it was plain protectionism (banning some companies in WTO member states from engaging in gambling with US customers, while allowing other forms of gaming in the US to be freely available). Has anyone in the US followed up this story? Are there any changes in the US laws planned to comply with their treaty obligations, or are they just taking the view of 'so what' to their treaty obligations? THAP
Dekka Raymaker thinking very hard Join date: 4 Feb 2007 Posts: 3,898	08-05-2008 02:58 From: Trout Recreant Plus, imagine trying to monitor the location of every casino on the grid and making sure that Americans are not able to access them. Yikes! They can't do that. Even if they could, all hell would break loose. Can you imagine!!?? They could create specific islands for Casinos only, zoning coming to SL? They could call it Wonderland! _____________________
Qie Niangao Coin-operated Join date: 24 May 2006 Posts: 7,138	08-05-2008 03:41 From: TooHighA Price Has anyone in the US followed up this story? Are there any changes in the US laws planned to comply with their treaty obligations, or are they just taking the view of 'so what' to their treaty obligations? Treaty obligations?! This is the WTO you're talking about here--every member state is in constant violation of one or another provision with one or another product or service, and just weighs the relative costs of counter sanctions. I mean, the entire planet's online gaming industry pales in comparison to a semicolon in the US Farm Bill or the corresponding EU agricultural protectionist policies. Anyway, I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be anything more than OpenSims hosting unregulated gambling from wherever they think they can avoid prosecution by US or other nations that regulate (and tax) online gambling. And I suspect the EU reference is just a sop for the VAT discussion. The smart casino operator will stay the hell away from EU jurisdiction and set up shop somewhere without regulations, reciprocity, tax, or extradition treaties. Somewhere Caribbean, I'd suggest. _____________________ Archived for Your Protection
Meade Paravane Hedgehog Join date: 21 Nov 2006 Posts: 4,845	08-05-2008 07:55 From: Qie Niangao Anyway, I'd be very surprised if this turns out to be anything more than OpenSims hosting unregulated gambling from wherever they think they can avoid prosecution by US or other nations that regulate (and tax) online gambling.. I look forward to Chaos telling us how his credit card got hacked, again, after using it on some gambling-grid that he TPed to from SL.. _____________________ Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224 - If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
Atashi Toshihiko Frequently Befuddled Join date: 7 Dec 2006 Posts: 1,423	08-05-2008 08:01 From: Russ Kanno Sometimes I think the European billing department consists of one person sitting in a garage with a cellphone and a looseleaf notebook. Oh, so you've already seen the office? -Atashi _____________________ Visit Atashi's Art and Oddities Store and the Waikiti Motor Works at beautiful Waikiti.
Sweet Primrose Selectively Vacuous Join date: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 375	08-06-2008 00:35 Interesting.... so they seem to be planning different rules on what is permissable depending on the host country. I wonder what impact such a thing might have on OTHER currently (though not always) forbidden behavior in SL, such as differences in German and U.S. law on virtual representations of behavior that would in real life be illegal in both places.

Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

Very Interesting....