Advice on copying, DMCA, etc...

Kyrah, this isn't what I'm claiming at all.

What I AM claiming is that, considering that this person owns one of our products, the animations seem to have been copied and recreated from there. There are certain moves that are completely derivative. Enough so that I, the original animator, had to look twice.. heck three and four times, comparing them to my own stuff, to make sure they weren't mine.
THAT is how similar the animations are.

My point with bringing that up was that his way of folding is identical to mine, and he owns one of my products, but claims that our product, again, the only one so far to fold in that particular way, was NOT used for reference.
Which I found a little bizarre, considering...

The questions you ask, such as "How different does it have to be?", are questions that can only be answered by taking it to court. This is one big reason it's going to cost a zillion dollars for you to find out.

Basically, you can file anything but it's up to the Lindens that be, to decide.

But in real life the general judgment tends to be, 'can't copyright an idea.'

We see similar products in real life all the time. Unless they stole your scripts, or copybotted the prims, probably is not a DMCA violation, but if you want to, let the authorities decide it.

Then all the dance places in SL would be in trouble, for copying dance moves seen on television, or for copying the Macarena, etc., etc.

I don't think this type of thing has been decided in courts yet as applies to virtual worlds and technology. But in general, just copying similar moves, especially if these are movements real animals make, would be very hard to prove a violation against, I think.

Now if he lifted out your actual work and put it in his own, then I'd say that's a violation.

The term "using it as a reference" can be taken a number of ways. It's possible that he just means he didn't set your product up in front of him and run the animations while he was working on his own... not that he didn't get the ides of that unusual folding of the back legs from you.

If that's the case...

At that level you're talking about patents, not copyrights, and I suspect you don't have a patent on that kind of animation in SL. Any more than Luskwood has a patent on the use of llTextureAnimation() for blinking eyes, or Uchi has a patent on his Felis eyes, or Beatfox has a patent on multi-segment flexible tails. Or that I have a patent on Tinycam, for that matter. These are all novel ideas that someone sufficiently skilled in the art could duplicate after seeing them in action.

Of interest for copyright isn't going to the the methods but the combination, the choreographic work that's used to give a "personality" to the character. The same expression of the character will be a lot more interesting than the mechanical implementation.

That's heartening! As I said, most, if not all, of the animations were copied.


After extensive examination, I can't see how he didn't have them set up and had them running.
Almost every one of them looks identical enough to have to make me look a few times. Some of them I had to compare by running them side-by-side with mine to find the differences.
It was like looking at one of those "Spot the differences" puzzles in the funny pages! *lol*

Mickey. You have become one of the superstars in SL with your creation and you will may find many more items that look or work similar with yours. I know every good designer and creator in SL knows about it.

In your case I would like to hear the answer of Linden Labs support team.

Animations can be ripped by the viewer, and converted back into BVH files. After that's done, it's trivial to change some of the timings. So there is a good chance your animations were ripped, not just re-created. But proving that is next to impossible. I sympathise greatly with your situation.

If you in good faith believe it to be copy, you can file a DMCA, and the other guy can file a counter claim to get his/her items restored. At that point it would then be settled in a court of law.

Well, do YOU think Mickey isn't smart enough to know the ways things get ripped? We are not talking about the ways things get ripped.

An animation is like a code where it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to create a new animation that works the same way. Animators can of course see if the original source is made by himself. Same way goes for Skin designers.

Mickey,

The questions you're asking here are not going to be answerable unless you get a lawyer. However thigns end up I wish you luck if you pursue this.

thanks, everyone, for all the kind words and support.

Sony, I wouldn't call me a superstar by any stretch. *grin*

I'm chatting with a lawyer as I type this (needless to say, I'm on hold...) and we're trying to figure out the best route.

Fingers crossed.

I also hope Linden Labs support team will be helpful - at least with a statement everybody can understand where the thin line is drawn between illegal and legal

GL Mickey !

Sorry, I don't see the point of your post. I'm offering him the best possible advice I can. And not *everyone* knows animations can be ripped, many people belive they are safe, like scripts. The more you know... *cue stars and cheesy theme music*

I'm pleasantly surprised that so much of what's been written here about copyright is correct, as compared to the frequent misinformation that appears. Maybe people are finally getting the idea.

I think Feldspar clarified his post to say that it may be worth filing a DMCA complaint, and I'll just add to that. Just because the other person may respond to the DMCA with a denial isn't a reason to not do so. It's cheap to file, so you've lost very little out of pocket if it doesn't work. You're under no obligation to actually follow up with a lawsuit if it doesn't work. I don't like the fact that the legal system works this way (where bluffing can win), but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.

However, there are other reasons to take into account. One is that filing a false claim could subject you to damages. IANAL, and I don't think I should even give an opinion as to whether or not that's a significant risk. If you do go to a lawyer, you might want to ask this question first before asking whether or not your infringement claims are likely to stand up, the latter being a much more difficult question.

Another reason is that if you get into the habit of filing DMCA claims that result in denials, even if they're all perfectly legitimate, LL may start to scrutinize your claims more carefully. Again, I don't really know what the risks are, it's simply something to keep in mind.

I'm not sure how LL could possibly do that. In the case of copyright, the line between legal creations and infringement is determined on a case by case basis, using the facts specific to that case. There will be cases where it's really the luck of the draw - a different judge might rule differently, and no one would say that either judge is clearly right or clearly wrong.

So in essence "when in doubt shoot first" ?

That's exactly what big corporations do sending dmca takedown on youtube by the tousand, sometimes even on content that isn't actually their!

LL will take down the content upon receipt of a DMCA, period. It may take time and LL do tend to drag their heels over many things but it will happen because LL's has no power to do anything else, this is what the DMCA take down requires by law.
The defendant then has a choice, either accept that the content is gone and move on, thereby inherently admitting liability should the person filing the DMCA take it to court or they must file a counter claim at which point LL must restore the content within 14 days (as far as I can recall), again by law. The entire process must then move to RL courts to decide who is infringing who, if at all.

In the cases of one of the parties being non-US based I have no idea what happens, whether a DMCA is even a problem for them and if it is how a non-US person would file a counter claim.

The DMCA law is only supposed to be a first strike type law designed at rapidly removing the content from distribution, the real determinations still happen in the courts.