Is this what we've come to?

I'm not going to link to it since A) I don't want to give the person publicity, and B) I'm not entirely sure if Strife would use it as an excuse to close the thread but I just saw a thread advertising land and in the title was the line NO VAT, are we really coming to the day when no vat is going to be a tagline selling point either for Europeans who are willing to take the vat or for non Europeans?

I would think the price itself would be the only consideration,

If you rent land thats $200 L a week - does it matter to you whether its VAT or not?

But it does matter if its $200L vs 240L a week.

Yes, it was only a matter of time before someone was blatant about it. It should be obvious that if it's a rental there is no VAT, unless you choose to report it yourself.

I guess that this is a non-European.

I can see that a headline of No Sale Tex might be attractive, as this would be added to the advertised price.

However, as Collete says - to a European it is the advertised price which is important - if it is advertised as L$200, then by default they pay L$200, and really couldn't care whether the provider gets all of that L$200 or whether the vatman takes a cut of that L$200.

Indeed if anything L$200 (no VAT) would put a European off, as to us something advertised like that tends to mean VAT *is* applicable but *hasn't* been added i.e. the price paid is going to be L$200 + VAT!!



Matthew

I would guess that there is a large population that
1) Are not European, or
2) Are from a European country where the tax is known by a different name
3) Never read the blog or this forum

" 'No VAT' ????? There's something missing ??- that I have to buy somewhere???
Or maybe I could use a jacuzzi instead?
The hell with that! Move on! "

From my understandings of the new VAT/Tax rulings, VAT is NOT applied to L$ transactions and thus all in-world L$ transactions are exempt from VAT.

I would therefore assume, the person advertising as non-VAT applied, does not understand the VAT rulings and is using the wordings of "non-VAT" as merely an advertising gimmick to try to get you to rent from him/her.

Totally unfair and should be AR'd.

I've put that people won't be charged VAT in a recent listing. It fits in with "You don't need premium membership to own land here".

I don't see the big deal myself, it's just pointing out the benefits of estate land and how users can save money.

Ciaran

If one has to pay rental in US$, then yes VAT can be applied ... but if you are paying in L$ then it is totally unfair to say No-VAT applied.

** VAT is not applied to L$ **

Depends if the 240L property has any added value.

European landlords are gonna have to start giving a free BJ a week if they want to stay in business.

I haz no VAT properties in a class 7 sim if anybody is interested.

Bod the way I saw it, and I didn't realise this matter was going to upset so many people, is that on estate land you're competing with LL's membership and tier prices. If someone was after mainland they'd have to weigh up premium membership price, tier fee and VAT too.

Seconded. Speaking as a European, if someone advertised a price and specified no vat , I'd assume I'd be charged the vat in addition to the quoted price.

A European who deliberately took an explicit "No VAT" path could be perceived as engaging in tax evasion.

You don't have to charge VAT in the UK if your turnover is less than £64,000 a year. That means of course you can't claim VAT back. It is of course wise to point out why you're not charging VAT.

Ciaran - VAT cannot be applied to L$ transactions.

If the Estate Land Owner has worked out all his costs in US$ and converted it into L$, understandable. But he/she cannot say NO VAT applied if they are charging rentals in L$, but only if you pay in US$ can VAT be added.

I have my own business in RL and totally understand the VAT and HMRC laws, I think some folk in SL are using the new VAT Linden rulings as a way to try to make their rentals more attractive ... it is underhand and sneaky

Quite possibly. I am from the US, but I have noticed that in the last week I am starting to see normal e-mail spam with phrases like...

"Prices are VAT free and same-day free worldwide shipping also exists as bonus"
- or -
"All prices are TAX and VAT free."

I had never heard of VAT before it was applied to SL, and no I am getting spam that mentions it.

Soon you'll be seeing spam that claims "Lag-Free" ?

No fair point Bod, I am charging in L$. I was going more from the point of view of trying to point out the price quoted is the price you pay and no extras. I won't do it again.

Also my ad was a couple of ads before the person who put VAT in their tag line so I'm thinking I may have started a bad trend, maybe they read my ad and thought it was a good selling point.

As a general rule, you can safely assume that any advert that notes that VAT is not being charged is a scam at best. EU legislation states that any product subject to that tax must be taxed - it isn't up to the seller to decide. And all quoted prices must include all relevant taxes unless explicitly noted as not being included in the quote price.

I am bit confused because I live in a state very close to two other states that charge either a much lower Sales Tax or in the case of Delaware... NO Sales Tax, and I know a LOT of people who travel the extra distance to get the cheaper prices. In fact, many Delaware businesses close to the borders of neighboring states with higher Sales Taxes do indeed advertise "NO SALES TAX" as a way to draw in consumers from other states. At the counter at the Walmart in Delaware, no one asks to see your Delaware license to make sure they are charging you the Sales Tax for your state.

So in my head, if I live in a country not affected by VAT and decide to rent out my SL land, why would it be a scam to advertise "NO VAT" when in fact I do not pay any VAT and would not need to collect VAT from anyone as long as I conducted my business in linden dollars only? Sure if they need to buy the linden off the Lindex they are going to have to pay LL VAT, but that has nothing to do with me.

Why would that be commiting tax fraud anymore then me buying my new car in Delaware to pay 6% less? Or is Delaware Honda commiting tax fraud by putting in its advertising "NO SALES TAX!!!!" ? Is it underhand and sneaky or is it just an exploitable truth, obviously legal or it wouldn't be such a common practice in my neck of the meatworld.

One doesn't lead to the other. LL sets its policy bring LL into to compliance, whether that makes resident compliant with laws as well is not their problem.

Zee was quite clear that individuals need to do research to make sure they're in compliance with EU (or whatever applies) tax laws.

For user-to-user transactions it's very likely no, but it's less clear when you have a VAT registered EU business that's doing business with other Europeans in SL. In that case you have business-to-user transactions which do require VAT to be remitted.

The reason is that (all together now)...

VAT is not sales tax.

They are remarkably similar in terms of what is taxed at where, but the law surrounding how prices must be quoted and who takes legal responsibility for their payment is very different. I can well understand how it looks legit from a US point of view to quote a price that way, but for anyone with a European background, describing something that is subject to VAT (and I mean VAT specifically, not sales tax) in such terms just looks like a scam.

what i mean is

a 200L plot is a 200L plot , if it doesn't earn the land lord the same that doesn't matter to the renter.

Where landlords will make out is the fact they can sell the same sized plot for less because they don't have to pay the VAT if they aren't in the EU.

If they advertised "No VAT" its really mainly saying "I the landlord don't have to pay VAT" which is meaningless unless they offer the same plot as their EU neighbor for less.

If they take linden payments of course the EU residents are paying VAT anyway on lindens they have to buy to cover rent.

UNLESS they take direct paypal payments, since if they are under that threshold, they don't have to pay the VAT right? So thats a legitimate thing to advertise.

In that case, its not any different from advertising as "Duty Free"

Ok, I will concede that VAT and Sales Tax are different enough, but I still don't see how a US based landowner advertising that rentals on his property carry no VAT or was willing to sell his property, which would also not need to include VAT, would be a scam. And I really am trying to understand.

I live in the US. No VAT can be charged to my account transactions either with other residents or with Linden Lab. I, as a US citizen, have no right or responsiblity to collect VAT. When I conduct business in SL, VAT is completely not an issue.

So why would advertising that fact, specifically the fact that I do not/cannot charge VAT on my land rental/sales, be scamming anyone? Or by stating outright that my prices include no VAT since it would be illegal for me to collect VAT?

Does it make an unlevel playing field for EU residents of SL? Sure, it really does, and to that I have no dispute. But I cannot collect VAT, and me advertising that fact isnt a scam, its just the way LL has made it by opening an office in the UK, thereby making themselves (but not me) responsible to collect VAT.

Okay -

BUT even if you can convince LL to stop treating it as a Sales tax and make higher prices for Euros that include VAT ------

Your never gonna have any authority to make the rest of the non EU landowners not talk about it like a sales tax.

True - but it is completely self-defeating.

Those outside the EU seeing the phrase "No VAT" will be as about as meaningfull as advertising it as "No soapflakes required".

Those inside the EU will see "No VAT" as "VAT excluded" and so will be wary that the price paid might be higher than the price advertised.

Matthew