TOS and Random Group Invitations question

This is very annoying and burns me up everytime I get an invite from someone I don't know. Because it seems to be the fad nowadays, it happens alot. But I won't report them as I'm not into doing this nor have I ever called them although many times I have been tempted to do so. I'd tell them why send me anything when they don't know me.

I think a simple checkbox "Ignore new group invitations" would probably go a long way to combating this issue, which I believe is more than just a fad, btw. (The more mainstream & accessable bots become, the easier it will be for the casual user to send mass-invites.)

That would force people to ask permission before sending a group invitation (Hey, would you mind allowing me to invite you to my group? Uncheck the box for a moment while I invite you!) - and still allow those that don't care either way to receive invites without permission by leaving the box unchecked.

Madhu, you seem to be going above and beyond in your attempts to do group invites the right way. Anybody that would visit twice and be offended by an invite is probably not the kind of person you'd really want in the group anyway. The group invites aren't promotional materials. They are the mechanism that LL has given us to ask people if they would like to receive future promotional materials. I can understand complaining if the same group keeps sending invites. I can understand complaining about invites from places you've never heard of. But if someone is going to get offended by what you are doing, then it's best to offend them early so they won't come back and bring down the atmosphere of your place.

That is a great idea! It would need to send the inviter a message to let them know what happened, but I think it would be a wonderful addition.

Oh boy! No, I didn't search for the previous thread, and like I said at the very start of my post, I really wasn't trying to be mean... but YOU sure as hell went there! Sheesh.

I wasn't giving anyone instructions. I was providing advice based on personal preference and my understanding of how people in-world generally view spam. And although I haven't read the rest of this thread, I'm sure most of the others have said the same.

It seems you already had your mind made up about this though, so I don't really understand why you bothered posting the question. Go ahead, spam your customers. It's your loss if you end up annoying/losing them over it, not mine. *shrugs*

And I would tell you that many people are accepting to be polite, which I used to do myself. I believe anyone who truly wants to join your group will find the sign and click it.

To be fair, I'm feeling very cynical about this lately, since I've been overwhelmed with group notices, unsolicitied invites, group IM's, etc...

Generally if I have actually visited somewhere, and then receive an invitation or IM, I would not AR; it would irritate me, but it would not be completely at random. If it happened _repeatedly_ and it appeared that I had been added to a "mailing list", I would.

It does depend though. There are all sorts of factors.

* Had I previously expressed an interest in a particular line or place? In what way? Repeatedly visiting seems not unreasonable for a single invitation, I would not object much to that. Having talked to the owner, or made a forum post about an item or product line would be a step further.
* What was the approach of the request? Random, or personal? A bald IM-less group invitation? Impersonal messages gain AR-likely points; actual properly-typed individual messages, no, that is polite. (If all of the unwanted post that I received was hand-written I would not mind it so much.)
* What was the content of the request? Did it actually have anything to do with the last contact I had? If I start to receive catalogues for a whole clothing shop when all I did was go there, buy a hat and think "yuk" about everything else, I will be a bit annoyed. On the other hand, an announcement of a free bug fix for a product would be directly appropriate.
* Was there a _believable_ opt-out mechanism; was the message basically opt-in? An IM saying "sorry to bother you, you will not receive any further communication, but customers might wish to know that there is a group to join blah blah" is a lot better than just some commercial announcement.
* How much sleep have I had? Have I run out of coffee? What is the weather like? Has a huge spot appeared on the tip of my nose just as I was about to go out, which is now getting redder and redder?

Obviously, fly-by spammers of whom I have never heard, sending invitations to groups that I have no interest in joining or automated messages about events that sound about as enjoyable as malaria, tick all of these boxes. In general I find that it is these sorts who are the ones that I encounter. (On the day of posting, I received two.)

It is true that people often do not take advantage of these things even when there are methods for them to do so. However, that doesn't mean that an opt-in self-service system is not the solution; it may also mean that it needs to be better in some way. More obvious, more attractive, easier to use or whatever.

I guess if it was a RECENT shopper list (past week or two) it wouldn't be too bad. I can't imagine what it would be like receiving group invites form everyone I've ever shopped with during my time in SL. I'd have no idea who they were--don't really know the names of every shop.

I get these invites all the time and i wonder how my name got on their list. They must be doing the same thing as the OP. I always decline. Yeah it's simple enough to do, but it is annoying and I guess I would compare it to spam--even if I did spen L$150 with you a year ago. I still wouldn't consider you a trusted entity. Again, I probably wouldn't remember you at all.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.

I find it hard to believe that the ~100 people who have accepted my unrequested group invitations have done so merely to be polite, but I will consider that possibility.

I will also consider changing the wording of my IM to note that it's a one-time thing and not the thin end of a wedge of spam. (Block that metaphor!) Maybe even merely to alert people of the existence of the group and letting them join on their own (which I already do for some visitors) rather than sending along group invitations. I won't stop sending IMs altogether, because I am genuinely grateful to the people who visit and I want to thank them. If someone wants to consider *that* to be spam and blacklist me for it, then maybe Argos is right that I don't want that person at my place anyhow.

I'm not going to make my group signs more prominent or more numerous. There are already three of them; they are plenty big enough; and people enjoy my place because it's pretty and atmospheric, and not ringed on all sides by irritating signage. They can't possibly be easier to use than they are now, where a single click alerts me that an invitation has been requested. Still, I'll think about a redesign anyhow; there may be some things I can change about them.

Everyone is different, Madhu- I'm sure there are a lot of people more than happy to accept an invite and have your group in their list.

But the question for you as a business owner is: Why, when there are numerous other ways to achieve the same thing, would you want to do something that pisses off even one legitimate customer? Even if it's only a small minority who would decide never to shop you again, or to AR you (which I think is going a bit far), why would you willingly lose that business over this?

A simple group invite doesn't have the capability to include the things you object to or the kind of announcement that you would like to see.

A group invite IS the opt-in/opt-out mechanism to receive or not receive future communications. I'm having a really hard time understanding why some people get so bent out of shape when they get a group invite from a place they've done business recently.

Wildfire, I obviously do not want to lose business. That's why I question whether my practice alienates so many people that it's not worth doing, when so many people seem (to me) to be happy to receive the notes and invitations. Of course I don't want to alienate potential customers, but if sending 100 group invitations irritates 5 while pleasing 25 (and leaving the rest neutral, say), then it's arguably worth doing, isn't it? What if it irritates 5 while pleasing 75? I've no way to gauge how many people are irritated versus how many pleased, other than that most people accept the invitations, and many come back to the cafe - and not a soul has complained to me about the invitations. From where I sit it looks like the net result is that I have gained business, not lost it.

I hope it doesn't seem like I'm just trying to defend my practice because I've already decided I like it. I do like it - if you'd told me when I opened the cafe three months ago that on April 1 my group would have 200 members, or that upwards of 25 or 30 avatars would stop by during my weekly events, I'd never have believed you. So I think my practice is working. And I just don't see "numerous other ways to achieve the same thing." I just don't. If I'd waited for people to click my sign my group would be half the size, and not as many people would know about the events.

But, I am frankly very surprised at the number of comments along the lines of "I hate this," "I AR this," and "This annoys me" that I see when this subject comes up here, given that I have never once received negative feedback for having done it. And so I want to is gauge how representative the people posting to this thread are of the world at large, and adjust my practice if it looks like it could indeed be doing more harm than good.

I'm just going to follow up on myself with one last comment - talking about "business" in the previous post is a little odd for me, because everything in my cafe is free to use. I have donation bowls, and more visitors of course means more donations. But someone who loves my cafe is free to use it as much as they want, even if they never leave a single Linden in that bowl. That's a bit different from a shop, where if you love the goods and want to use them you have to pay for them.

I'm not sure whether that changes the group invite analysis; perhaps it shouldn't. I benefit from having visitors even if they don't donate; having people there makes the place more fun and helps attract other visitors who may donate. And yet, maybe there really is a difference - when I invite you to my group, I am not saying "join to keep apprised of new reasons to come and give me your money." I am genuinely saying "join to keep apprised of fun things you and your friends can do for free."

Just more navel-gazing on a Friday afternoon when I'd rather not think about work. Once again, thanks for indulging!

For me, it's only been a hassle when I've gone on a shopping run. Teleporting to many places in a space of an hour or two, looking for that one item. Search isn't always helpful, so I'll go over to one store, click on the welcome pop-up and/or notecard detailing the 'rules'/Mall group invite and so on. Then I'll walk/cam around and realize their search 'ad' was misleading, or that I've landed in the middle of a mall with no idea where to find that _one_ item.

So I go to the next place, and so on. It can get really frustrating, so when I do get 'random' invites from stores and malls, kind of adds insult to injury. I now often just use SLex before checking out the store. Once I _do_ buy something, I suppose I may be less ticked off if they sent me an invite. But after wasting time hoping from one place to the next, my patience has just about run out.

I don't have the same reaction when they come from _actual_ groups or hangouts.

Indeed. So best not use them unless accompanied by a proper IM.

Because it is unsolicited, unwanted commercial communication, wasting my time and potentially capping my IMs. In some cases it is more excusable than others but there definitely is a slippery slope here. Why not send invites to people who turned up but didn't buy anything? Why not send them over and over again in case they were missed the first time? I buy things to receive a product, and nothing else; if I want to join a group I will join a group, not that I have any group slots left in any case.

Well I don't know what your business model is, or if you even have one. But from where I stand, if those 5 annoyed people are folks who might have given you money, but are now giving their money to someone else, I think your group is having a detrimental effect on your business. Perhaps that effect is balanced out by the people who like it- but I argue that the people who DO like it and want to be in the group will be the same ones who voluntarily join your group when made aware of it while at your shop.

If you have no financial stake in the place, however, then you can stand to lose a few patrons.

And you asked how representative the people here at the forums are of SL at large. They're not, at all. Most forum goers are passionate about SL and are only on the forums because they're at work and not able to be in-world. They are hardcore SLers, and those are the ones most likely to have solid opinions on any given topic, whether they're for or against.

That is not to imply that their feedback isn't useful. You've got people who've been here since the beginning reading these forums, and many regular posters are business owners of all degrees of success. But if you really want to know, "what does the average person who might visit my place think?" Well, you can only find that out by experimentation and face-time with your patrons.

I checked the Spam folder for my Yahoo! e-mail account. There are 1,684 pieces of garbage in there. All are from March 2, 2008. I realize you’re not mass mailing and, in fact, I don’t think it’s necessarily you and what you’re doing that people are talking about when they say they “hate this” and “AR this”. It’s that people don’t want to log into SL™ and get 1,600 pieces of spam a month (and without any built-in spam filters).


--Hugsy

Hey folks - I'm reviving this thread to let you know, if you're interested, that I'm trying an experiment with the group invitations.

Instead of sending IM + group invitation to anyone who visits my cafe twice, as suggested in this thread I've sent an IM saying "Hello [name], Thanks for visiting my cafe; if you like you can join the [group name] group (or IM me for a group invitation) and you will receive notice of events at the cafe."

I've also changed the "touch to request a group invitation" signs in the cafe to (perhaps) make them a little more prominent without interfering with the atmosphere.

In a few days I'll check the returns and see how they compare to the number of people who joined the group under the old practice.

I appreciate everyone's suggestions and thoughts. I know that different folks have different tolerances for group notices, and different definitions of what is spam and what is not, but I would really like to avoid being part of the problem.

I never do it,I do not like the random invite.Even if I shop there.
The offer is in most shops on a board when I enter their shop.
If you have a good product and update more then once a month people tend to come to see what is new.
I do not even use a group for my shop updates and seem to do just fine with a "new" section in the main shop.
Use Adds in search and spend a lil more time in world at public places and work via social networking seems to work for me.

A little late in the thread but I will add my experience since this has been something I have been dealing with over the past year. My current practice is to send out a group invite to any person who comes to my store this is done with an alt account of mine. If the alt is not logged on it sends the invites when he does, usually everyday. Before this we manually invited people to our group from our guest list. Initially i filtered invites off of a list of people previously invited, but this eventually became very time consuming considering the traffic we get though our store, so I send them to anyone who is not in the group. Yes I was to lazy to keep doing that i admit. I am working on a script to keep track of people previously invited and not invite them again.

I have sent thousands of group invites to people, and would say about 20% accept the invitation, and a handful, maybe 5 total over the past year have responded somewhat angrily, and many many people have thanked me. I do not view this as unsolicited spam, i think if they didn't visit my store and I randomly invited them it would be. This is my opinion and certainly debatable. My group is for product announcements, sales, and a majority of the time sending out free gifts to my customers. I also occasionally go through and remove people from the group that havn't been in sl for a few months or more.

I do get slightly annoyed when I receive an unsolicited random group join request, but I just decline it and thats it. There is nothing clearly in the TOS that disallows this, though i could see repeated requests holding some merit. I have also tried just having the sign, and so many people don't notice it and ask me if I have a group they can join, so I went back to the practice of inviting anyone hat visits. People who like my store and products never seem to mind, if I noticed a higher percentage of people that this bothered then maybe I will change our practice.

All in all this has been nothing but an extremely positive thing for my business, which is why I do it, and why others do as well. If I was to only invite people that requested to be invited, our group would be much smaller and many people that love being in our group would not be. To the 5 people that I have pissed off out of thousands (admittedly probably a few more that didn't IM me), I am sorry to have caused so much stress in your sl life by having to decline an invite

Smiley faces don't make statements less snide. Those of us who get annoyed by the practice of repeat invites have every right to be, and I suspect that it's quite a lot more than 5. My practice in that case would be to never come back to your store. Yes, really. People who choose to avoid your store to avoid the spam represent lost revenue, and you have no way of quantifying that. Hey, it's your choice if you want to spam your patrons, but you should know that not everyone who finds your practice annoying and offensive will bother to send you a scathing IM about it. What you choose to do with that information is also your choice.

Although Feline (/me waves ) has already pretty much expressed my sentiments in a way I couldn't anyways...
I'd like to add: if I have to start sending angry IMs to every person who spams me with unwanted group invites I'm not only gonna get annoyed with the invites, but also with the fact that I'm having to spend time sending IMs when I could be having fun.
So the fact that you wouldn't receive an IM from me and my fellow spam-dislikers means doesn't mean much.
But then perhaps the fact that I and my fellow spam-dislikers would not return to your store doesn't man much to you either

The big question here is 'is it spam?' I dont think a store inviting customers to join a group is spam, i do feel random group invites to anyone with no association with your business is. I look at it the same way someone else earlier in this thread pointed out, it has had a positive impact on my business. Unfortuanly you cant please everyone and we have accepted that and do what we can do to please the majority. We go out of our way to try and please everyone of our customers, and anyone who has dealt with my store knows that. We are extremley honest and fair with people and by no means try to harrass anyone. This is evident by the fact of after a year in business have not had one unhappy customer that I know of.

I even said I am sure it is more than 5 people, because not everyone takes the time to IM me. But overall this has had a positive impact with positive feedback, which is why I do it and most other businesses as well for the same reason. I made that snide remark to the 5 people who did not kindly IM me, but more verbally attacked me. The one thing I do not like with my approch is it will invite someone again after they decline and they return to the store after a few days and the script is reset. I am working on a fix for this, so someone will get a onetime only invite. If that one time invite is going to annoy somebody so much that they wont shop at our store, well I hate to say it, but we probally dont mind if they choose not to shop there.

I find them mildly annoying, but not annoying enough to do anything about them. But yes, they are most definitely spam. To me, they're no worse than the tv ads that disturb my viewing pleasure mid-program.