fair use and no mod objects

Where does the right of the builder end, and the right of the owner to use an object begin?

Specifically, if you buy a scripted object, and don't like the scripts, why should you not be able to script it yourself?

Also, is selling an object no mod, no transfer, an invitation for buyers to seek tools to change the perms?
Is the practice fueling the fire so to speak.

What are your thoughts?

W~

If the owner wantsto let you mod his work he will sell it with mod rights. I respect those rights and may ask the scripter if he can customise it for me or show the function to another scripter and pay him to write a new script to do what I want.

Selling an object no mod no trans is an indication that the builder does not want the object modified or transferred. If you want different perms, ask the builder for a quote.

That's all well and good Tegg, but I'm ending up with a lot of 2k objects (cars and planes mostly) that are great to look at, but less than stellar in operation.

Why should a builders wish for you to not mod his build override your enjoyment of his work, when she/he is probably more concerned that someone may be wanting to copy and sell his stuff, not *use* it?

Wouldn't it be better to sell mod copy no trans? The issue here is the unwanted scripts in the objects. Fact is there is software to remove perms. Wouldn't it be better to cater to the market, than to drive the market to seek such software?

Gosh all these questions!

I did that Jimmy, can't recall the reply word for word, the gist was that the price for an unscripted mod object identical to the one i had would cost more. There was also a snooty remark about how i could pay a geometric builder to make me a one off object, and how i could make my own.

Like..... what am i missing here. If i buy something in rl, i can pretty much colour it how i want, lop bits off, stick bits on, if its a car i can buy thingies for it, or change them myself if i were a mechanic.

Heck if i bought a car without an engine in rl it would be much cheaper. (plus of course the cost to have one installed).

What I am saying is this, why would an unscripted mod copy no-trans object be worth more than a scripted no-mod copy no-trans object, and what possible reason could a creator give for not wanting to release one? (Other than to alienate a buyer of highly priced sl objects).

Hope I haven't rambled too much

Hmm. I think the answer is found in the following questions....

Were you somehow compelled or coerced to buy the object you now want to mod and/or transfer?

Were the perms clearly described or incorrectly described at point of purchase?

Is a builder allowed to decide on his/her own marketing strategy?

Is finding software to deliberately rip someone else's creation really a fair market response?

Could you not seek out a different product if the permissions from the object's builder are not to your satisfaction?

Have you actually spoken to the builder and specified your custom requirements?

I do have some sympathy with your problem, as in RL I have often looked at ten dollar bills and wondered why they did not come with a free printing kit to allow you to change them to 100 dollar bills. This lack of consideration just drives the market to make fake 100 dollar bills, which explains why there are so many forgeries around.

~Snowman~

The answer is simple. The builder does not want to issue his product that way.

A second answer is that it is clear from your post that you desire more perms, that product has more value to you, so the builder has every expectation to demand a higher price.

A third answer is that by making the product non-mod the builder can possibly better predict and deal with after sales customer service in an effective way.

Maybe the builder does not want to make it easy to copy his build (by giving mod rights). Maybe the builder does not like the idea of "releasing" (your word) the design.

Personally I agree with you, I LIKE copy mod objects. But the builder might have a range of products that are similar, and might want to sell several versions to the same customer. If the market was competitive enough, there will be someone that offers the perms you desire.

Thats not a good analogy, let me clarify for you.

I have bought many vehicles, cars and planes mostly. When i say many, maybe 30 so far at an average of around 1800L each.

Most of them are no mod, and most of them suck at the task for which they were scripted. i.e. moving. I am not suggesting using software to change the perms for resale against the builders wishes, I am suggesting that consider the investment of my money in these objects, why should i not be able to fix them given that I am an able scripter.

I love good builds, so why should i be forced to put up with a script that i don't like? A script that i cannot test until after i have parted with the lindens for the object?

Ripping an object is not the object of the exercise, fair use of the object that one has paid for is. It's mine now. I respect the fact that it's no trans, but i'm not seeing eye to eye on no-mod.

Some objects you can delete the scripts out of then replace them with your own, I understand what you mean, some stuff that may ply up under havok4, might look great and the builder has left SL so can't update it for example, and I guess the same wuill happen with stuff made now when Mono 6 is introduced too if it's not modible now.

Yep, that's nailed it.

For the time being at least, i'm giving up buying no-mod stuff. This last 2k object is next to useless, and will be dragged out every time i think about buying another no-mod vehicle

Why don't you sell the builder your superior script? I trust you would "release" it to the builder with mod perms, so as not to cause any alienation? Then everyone can benefit.

Surely then you politely offer your services for a fee to improve the script for the builder?




If he allows you to mod his script then, well, you have a copy of his script, it's an open invitation for people to rip scripts, surely as a scripter yourself you can see the issue there?

Sorry, you misunderstand, i don't want or need the scripts at all. Unscripted is fine thanks, and no, i dont offer to make it better for the builder, i'm interested in my own personal enjoyment of the builders work.

it may be possible that you haven't really made it clear to the creator what you want from them "a mod, no copy, no transfer without your original script" because you've confused a lot of us replying? of course if you don't want the script that is your choice, but 1. the originator doesn't have to comply and 2. there's no reason for you to expect a reduction in price.

Thats not the object of the exercise. I'm not trying to sell scripts. I'm trying to enjoy the objects i've bought for my own personal use.

Glad I brought this up, you guys toss it around among yourselves for a while, it's given me more questions to think about, thanks for all the input in such a short time

Next time you're buying a vehicle ask the builder first if you can buy an unscripted version and ask for mod perms. I'm sure some will be suspicious of your motives but that's just SL for you.

You could give your script to the builder for free of course. Then, if the builder agrees that your script is superior, then subsequent purchases will be with your improved script and your enjoyment and everyone else's will be much increased.

There would, of course, be no need for the builder to make the vehicle have mod perms.

Everyone will be happy then.

Ciaran, you may or may not know this, but does script creator override build creator? i.e. if avatar X makes the car and then Avatar Y puts in a script created by him, when you click on the item would it say Avatar Y was the creator of the whole object?

That's another reason anyway I think, with an object like a car you can replace the root prim and it states your the creator, although you've done nothing towards the build?

The "overall" creator is shown as the creator of the root prim. The script maker will not override this, even if it is placed in the root prim.

But the scenario in my second paragraph is correct, yes?

Hmmm... so this becomes a technical question, suddenly, at least for me. Is it impossible to remove the scripts from a no-mod scripted object? It would seem from some cursory testing that one can move no-copy scripts out of no-mod scripted objects (after agreeing to an appropriately scary dialog about breaking the object), but if trying to delete from object contents a script that has copy permission, one gets the warning dialog and then it shouts (yes, really: *shouts*) that you don't have permission to do it. Maybe I'm just missing something, but this seems inconsistent.

(It's actually pretty important that we be able to move no-copy contents out of no-mod objects. No-mod poseballs, for example, are just delivery vehicles for no-copy animations, for my uses.)

I have to admit that I've recently started selling a scripted item with no-mod prims, as much as I hated to do it. One huge problem with that, besides limiting the purchaser's ability to change the item is that they can't Reset the scripts inside, so I *really* hate to do that. But the thing has such complicated scripted geometry already that trying to make it robust to user-applied edits just seemed hopeless. (What's the script to do if they delete one of the linked prims that its supposed to move around? What if something moves out of link distance? What if.... So, I just punted and made it no-mod, with regrets.)

(Oh, about the root prim creator thing: Yes, whoever created the root prim will be creator of the object. Of course, one could re-link or replace the root prim of a mod-able object. And a script can check who's the creator, but... if you replace the prim *and* the script, that would be sorta academic. I guess at that point the original creation becomes a bunch of pretty prims linked in to somebody else's creation. No firm opinion from me about the appropriateness of that.)

I have items with no mod scripts in them that enable me to use the reset button, just that nothing else, I'm 99% sure

Oh, sorry if I wasn't clear, but absolutely: no-mod scripts can be reset in a mod-perm object. But in a no-mod object, they can't be. I lost attachments to being orbited because of that. (It kinda makes sense, I guess, but it's annoying. There's been some mumbling about scripts needing a "reset" permission independent of modify perm, but don't think it went anywhere.)

This is why nomod scripted items SHOULD be copyable rather than transferrable.. so that the "package" it came in, always contains a factory original copy.

Fact is, back to the OP, there are many good reasons to make something nomod..

1. making sure that copyable scripts are not removed..
   
2. keeping end users from inserting "linkmessage" sniffers designed to reverse engineer the communications between scripts,
   
3. simple concerns of IP theft.. let's face it, you don't even need a script to copy moddable primwork.. just time. Plus most content theives inworld still use "prim copiers".
   
4. Sculpted Prim THEFT via screenshot
   
5. Concerns of having their prims used as the "simkiller" of the day.
   
6. n00b-Proofing.
   
7. Just keeping the damned thing working!

I sell a pair of boots.. and they're pretty cool. I've had some people complain that the boots are nomod. I added scripted resizing, and even scripted colour change.. but that's still not enough for some people. They "Claim" they want to "just add a few prims".. but how far of a stretch is it that they use a prim copier, add a few prims, and then sell teh work claiming it as their own? Nearly every aspect of those boots is moddable, nearly every scripted feature has a toggle. But the simple fact is, I used hardcoded linknumbers in my script, to save memory. And if I sold it moddable.. adding one prim and the colour change, hide/show features of some of the prims, and the scaling, would all go to hell.

It's not easy to say "no, I'm not going to do this".. and it's worse when some jerk won't accept no for an answer..

you say you want to "enjoy the creators work".. then do so,, as a whole. Don't carve up the Mona Lisa because you think it should use a different shade of green. The scripts, and even the permissions, are part of what defines a product. If there are elements you don't like about a product, say so.. Suggest changes, request features.. or just be grumpy if you prefer.. feel free to feel that way. But don't expect a lot of support from people when you post veiled threats that you're running off to go get a copybot to hack the product.

People have posted some VERY good ideas here.. and the idea about approaching the creator with improved scripts, is a great one. Offer him a partnership deal, hell offer him what I did in a similar case.

There was a product whose functions I loved, but the model I hated. I approached the creator politely and said "I've made this model.. that I would really like to add your scripts to. Here is a copy of my model, full perms. I'd be happy to pay you for your trouble here, but I'd also like to offer to you, the opportunity to sell your scripts in my model.. we could work out the details later if you're interested."

That approach really does work in SL. Asking for a change, saying "here's my scripts, would you sell me a copy of your model with these scripts?" actually can work.. but don't be upset when the guy says "no thanks".. he may be putting a LOT of risk on the line just to make you happy.. and at the end of the day, he may decide that L$2000 ($8 USD) isn't worth the potential risks he perceives.