Property Taxes/Maintenance (tier fees) versus Product Sales ratio question

Talent is not the sole reason people make money, in SL or in RL. There are other factors. Timing, connections, business sense (which is a talent, yes but also a skill) and on and on. If it were easy everyone would be a millionaire (which would blow the bell curve sky high: then everyone would want to be a trillionaire, I guess.)

So Yumi, I take talent out of the equation. (Also, I see some crap merchandise in SL on some huge sims or malls, with huge sales; it isn't always the 'most talented' in SL as in RL who makes a success. Unless one could argue some tacky things that sell so well reflect a talent for gauging public taste.) I've known incredibly talented people in RL who did not even put themselves out there, or who just didn't make a go of things for one reason or another.

So if your argument is that someone making their living in SL enough to pay for the game, or even some of RL, and who doesn't have to buy Lindens to play SL with, has more to contribute to the world because that proves they are more talented than someone who has to buy their Lindens with dollars - I disagree.

Um, of course they do - anyone who's going to offer a building opportunity (or whatever else) to someone is going to check they're a good builder first. And if they are a good builder, chances are, they do not pay for L$. Whether that is because they make all they need from their inworld business, or because they do not need to buy anything because they are happy in a sandbox all day, doesn't really matter.



I mean people who buy L$ for US$ - and furthermore, people who do so not just as a means of knowingly transferring US$ between users by proxy (eg, tenants contributing tier shares - where the buyer knows that the L$ will all be sold and paid to LL). Paying with time can be a valuable contribution, but it can't pay tier. A key aspect of SL's economy is that people should be able to sell their L$ for US$ - both for tier and other things - but they can only do that if there are buyers out there.

And do they feel underrewarded? Well, there are quite a few newbies who refuse to buy L$ because they can't see any goal to SL other than earning L$, and so short-circuiting it would make it pointless for them. There are also people who bought L$, tried to do something, failed, felt cheated, and are now warning people not to buy L$. Now, I know there are all kinds of arguments about why success can't be guaranteed, and that's fair enough, but doesn't change the iron truths that unhappy buyers are absent buyers, and that no buyers means no selling.



No, what I mean is that if you take someone who is "livin' large" in SL by whatever definition, whether it's having a successful business or being a talented creator or having a mansion or anything - there's probably a 90% chance that they are not buying L$. Maybe it's because their costs are covered; maybe it's because they're sponsored; maybe it's because they have friends whose content they can use; maybe it's because they have so much content already that it has reached the point of diminishing returns. The reason why doesn't matter, what matters is that the people having the most enjoyable experiences (by their own terms) aren't buying L$. In other words, the people who are getting (in their own perception) the highest value from the product are the ones who are NOT paying for it. Which is a completely backward busines model.

But the person hiring the builder is not going to ask them where they get their lindens from....whether they purchased them or not. They are not going to make a judgment on that. You're the one making a judgment.




Yumi - even those who do not "buy" lindens...spend them, and they end up in LL hands just as if we were to buy them. When I pay the sim owner for tier fees....he passes that on to LL. If me and a few other neighbors weren't there paying him tier fees, then he would probably let go of those sims....so that would be about 3 less sims for LL to collect on.

Those who don't buy lindens still spend lindens at other stores....same process as above.

Paying with Time most definitely pays for tier! Store owners put in TIME to sell products. Mine is about 95% TIME, and about 5% of other.



I don't believe this to be true. A lot of my friends and store group members are living large, and they don't run a business - and they are not escorting or "sponsored" (whatever that means - you mean like having a sugar daddy?) I'm pretty sure they have to buy a pretty large sum of lindens every month, considering the huge homes they have, and all the stuff they are buying, and they have a different outfit on every day, so it looks like they are keeping the clothing stores in business, as well. It's a pretty good cross section of the population, so not some "elite" group.

Where are you getting your information?



We PAY for it with our TIME! I am talking business owners here. TIME - it takes TIME.

OK - let's get to the point, and cut to the chase. You're having to buy lindens....and have a wee bit of a resentment toward those who do not.....correct? And your assumptions reflect that....correct?

This has boiled down to a "Fairness" discussion again....correct?

No.. of course not.. but they are people who enjoy their experience in SL more than many others. Yet they do not pay for it. Or, ok, yes, they do pay by working hard and putting in time - that's fair enough.

BUT.. THIS DOES NOT ENABLE YOU TO SELL YOUR L$. In order for you to sell your L$, there have to be people buying L$ with real money, from their own pockets.

Content creators add a huge amount of value to SL. But value does not automatically transform into money, and to pay your tier, it's money you need.



*nod* And those store owners need to sell the L$ for US$.. which means they have to click Sell on LindeX.. and in order for that to happen someone else must be clicking Buy.



Without the people clicking Buy, your L$ cannot be exchanged for US$.



Nope. It's nothing to do with me and nothing to do with fairness. I don't actually buy L$, and I have nothing against those that don't. My point is that the people who do buy the L$ - who click the Buy button on LindeX - are CRITICAL to the in-world economy. Without them, nobody can sell their L$ and the whole in-world and tier economy breaks down. Yet.. how are they rewarded for that? By and large, they are NOT the ones with the big estates, the big breaks, etc. Maybe they could be more rewarded if they paid with their time.. but if they do that, and they stop clicking Buy, the Sell orders start to mount up, and tier goes unpaid..

This is inherently unstable. The entire economy _hinges_ on L$ buyers putting money into the pot yet they are rarely if ever given special consideration for their experiences; while bonus after bonus is piled on business owners, content creators, and landlords, who are the ones who take money OUT of the pot. Now to me, that looks like a good recipe for an empty pot sometime in the future - and all the arguments about fairness or talent or whining will vanish into the air as the pot remains empty.

Christ on a crutch, Yumi, if there were not enough people hitting "buy" the L$ would be going down against the US$. It's not. It's been going up or staying level for the past two years.

Not necessarily.

There are a number of closed loops that go through LindeX but never really enter the in-world economy. For example, resident A buys L$ to pay to landlord A. Landlord A sells the L$ to resident B and uses the US$ to pay tier. Resident B pays the L$ to landlord B who then cashes out by selling it to landlord A, and so it goes around and around. But this is just a closed loop; the L$ doesn't circulate, it doesn't go to pay for content, it doesn't expand the economy. Yet the L$ value will stay stable and the volume traded will increase and increase as more and more residents create loops like this.

Not addressing the rest because I don't know. But, how do you know most people who have the estates and other ways are 'living large' (however you define it) are not buying their Lindens? It seems reasonable to me that there are a fair amount of people who can afford to do this and so they do.

OK, Yumi - so with your figures, and I'm not sure what your sources are....the economy is doomed, SL is about to go bust. Time to pack it in.

It isn't doomed, just unstable. And LL won't go bust - they make money on all those tier loops. What will happen is that content creators will feel the pinch.

To the question at hand... my stoe covers the land it takes up in prims (it is on a much bigger owned plot with our house and one of our friends) within around 4 days. It would cover the complete cost of all our land easily by the end of the month if i paid that.

However I have a different set up from most. My partner and i split profits on all items within my store, she recieved 10% and pays all tier. My store generally pays her our 1/3 of our tier payments by the end of the month (this used to be over 1/2 but we just tiered up in order for my store to begin to expand some more so what it covers is now less).

so based on that alone if i was paying 1/2 of all our tier costs that would be around 17% of the money my store makes goes to tier.

After advertising and uploads etc my total profit is around 65% of sales, which is rather reasonable all things considered. This will also likely drop as we begin to use those prims we have just purchased with the tieriing up.