Five Years In Prison For SL Casino Opertors ?

For starters, the US Dollar is NOT based upon any amount of Gold and the only thing that "endorses" it in the real world is that most people, at least at the current time, are willing to accept it as a medium of exchange. The value of the dollar is no less arbitrary than the linden. The US went off of the gold standard and delinked completely from gold thirty years ago.

And again: Whether the Linden is a currency, which it is not, has no bearing whatsover on the issue of whether SL Casinos are operating an illegal internet gambling business.

Whether or not LL is a fiduciary institution or engaged in a gambling operation is relevant only to a determination of whether or not LL is subject to and in violation of the provisions of the new legislation.

What is being discussed in this thread is whether or not individual SL Casino operators and/or owners are operating a gambling business subject to the provision of the act. And it is not relevant to that determination whether or not they they are "dealing with real money." All that is required in that regard is that they be dealing in" something of value."

And while as you say people who run virtual casinos within SL are providing content, there are those who also do so in order to gain a real world financial profit,

Well that depends on your viewpoint.....

1) Emanate Domain. (I have asked this question before) If I am standing in Caledon or Dreamland (private estates) or the mainland "where" am I. Am I in the UK, the US or somewhere else......

2) The Linden dollar.. Yes it has fungible value but it is not legal tender, and unlike a gambling chip in a Casino, Linden will not buy them back from you.

3) Real Domain. It may be not legal for US citizens to gamble online but I can tell you that is not the case for me in the UK, and should I choose I could also own a casino or other businesses of that type either directly or by purchasing shares in it

Actually, it is. Dollars actually have no value per se, they are promissory notes, which during the time when people really started to get rich, didn't want to lug around gold. The system of dollars and cents was crudely put in place. It was like a loan on paper, essentially. Then you could trade the government pieces of gold and silver to get these notes for ease of use. The theory was so nice, that it expanded.

You'll notice, on a quick googling the conspiracy theories that abound due to the government making more money than there is gold stored, and therefore, if the world were to ever turn their notes back to gold, there would be a shortage, causing a national crisis. This theory abounds which drives the price of gold up everyday.

And actually, they weren't delinked at all. What happened was the Federal Reserve was forced to hand over all the certificates to the Federal Government sometime in the 30's. Since then, the government has controlled this gold and all the certificates that come with it, presumably in Fort Knox, however, conspiracy theories abound that they are holding it at Cheyenne Mountain.

I believe what you are referring to, 30 years ago was the ambition of the Federal Government to full break free, declaring the dollar currency to be used officially on markets (which is how we can compare the Euro to the dollar, etc.), but it was never officially "delinked", which has lead to the current situations.

Read this for fun and interesting opinions:
http://www.blanchardonline.com/gold_as_investment/confiscation_again.php

Not exactly too informative, but nicely done article about the seesaw of gold versus dollar.

That IS true.. LL isn't buying them back from you, they are simply providing a service to match up people wishing to trade their Lindens for USD with people looking to buy Lindens.

Gaah!. You're all bickering over the small things.

The fact is - If the online casino operators all flee into Second Life thinking they're safe to operate here. Then the US government will do whatever it takes to put a stop to it. Even if it means making a couple of new laws and invading the odd country here and there.


Now thread closed!

Sorry

Since 1975 the United States currency has been allowed to float in relation to the price of gold or other currencies. Since that time THE DOLLAR HAS ABSOLUTELY NO INTRINSIC WORTH, IT IS FIAT MONEY!!!! You can't take it to the government and get anything in return for redeeming it other tham other fiat currency.

Fiat money is money that enjoys legal tender status derived soley from a declaratory fiat or an authoritative order of the government.

THERE IS NOTHING BEHIND, BACKING, OR SUPPORTING THE US DOLLAR AS CURRENCY OTHER THAN LAW WHICH PROCLAIMS THAT THE PIECES OF PAPER ISSUED BY THE US MINT AND DISTRIBUTED THROUGH CREDITS ISSUED BY THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM SHALL BE CONSIDERED LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

(And quit reding those phony research sites whose only purpose is to peddle the sale of gold. They wiill rot your brain.)

I am proposing that Linden Lab provides us with a function llGetUserNation() which will allow us to detect whether or not the user is from the US (based on IP, payment info, etc).

If they are from the US, then our games can gently degrade to freeplay mode.

I believe this solution will allow for full compliance of all laws.

1.) For purposes of the subject of this discussion you are in the UK using interstate and foreigen communications facilites, which are subject to the jurisdiction of the US to place bets and wagers on the outcome of a game of chance which is generated by and exists on the facilities of Linden Labs in the USA. As interactive content on the web advances there may come a time when the US Courts, either as the result of legislation or the development of common law, will consider you as being in the United States by the activities of your agent/avatar.

2) The provisions of the new law are not triggered by the use of legal tender to make wagers or bets. All that is required is that bets are made "with something of value."

3) Yes , of course you can operate an internet gambling business out of the UK, but you will not be able to do business with persons within the US unless they are able to make payments to you entirely through a financial entity that is in no way subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

The L$ has value, otherwise nobody would be cashing it out, and LL wouldn't be selling it.

The question that springs to mind is, if Linden Lab had to close the Lindex and economy, effectively closing down the one reason many people are here, who would stay (because its fun) and who would just up and quit because they were forced to go and get a real job to make money to live, instead of playing a computer game.

Frankly, the sooner the casinos and camping chairs go, the better for everyone. If your sole existance in SL is based on sitting in a camping chair being paid L$6/hour for doing nothing, sucking up the resources from real players who are trying to get something done, then you may as well not bother to log in.

Lewis

Hey, all of you who say lindens have no value. Please give me all your valueless lindens. After all if they have no value, you won't be out anything.

I'll be happy to help you with that, and I won't even charge people to take away their worthless L$ either.

Lewis

Simple conclusion after reading this thread. It is obvious that the issue is debatable, but when it comes down to it, the VERY FACT that this issue IS debatable further insures that PayPal and other banks and funds transfer sites will not continue to allow transfers to and from SL, unless LL bans casinos in world. Simple as that. You think PayPal is going to risk another muti-million dollar fine just so a few meatheads can keep their "casinos" in SL? Do you think LL is going to risk having their means of transfer shut down AND face possible criminal charges? NOT! I give it less than three months before LL adds the new TOS violation line on gambling in world, but would expect it anyday now.

Edit: I'd be happy to help Lewis Nerd and that other chap take on all the "worthless" L$. You may "gift" those L$ to my avatar Alienware Pitts any time or day. Just doing my part. Thank you.

That's just more alarmist rubbish, and your statements are immediately verifiable as false, by even the most bumbling of investigators. You can still use your credit card to buy Lindens from Linden Labs at any time, for immediate use in-game. You can also use PayPal on external sites to buy Lindens, and I know this because I did it yesterday via SLExchange. As far as the banking industry goes, this issue isn't even on the radar, let alone being a topic of discussion. If it were, somebody other than the people in this silly thread would be talking about it.

Paypal has not been fined for permitting transactions with any online gaming company or environment in any way. The fine had not one thing to do with gambling - it was over consumer protections. The current lack of Paypal access directly on the Linden Labs site probably has much more to do with operating fees than your sensationalistic hoodoo.

Yelling something louder doesn't make it more true.

t

What? I'm not talking about NOW; I'm talking about sometime very soon. You must be in denial. This issue is a hot topic here and no doubt people have informed law enforcement and PayPal, etc of what exactly is going on here. In fact, I know for a FACT, because a good friend of mine in world who had a casino move into his sim and killed his rez time sent letters about it to his senator, and forwarded tem to PayPal, MasterCard and law enforcement. Now that was just one guy, and I only know many three people in SL. If he did it, you can be sure others have as well.

PayPal has NEVER been fined for transferring gambling money, huh? What's this then?
http://news.com.com/PayPal+settles+over+gambling+transfers/2100-1017_3-5055237.html

And that was BEFORE thios new law. You think they will risk letting that happen again for a few SL casino owners? lol.

Noone is talking about it!? It was FRONT PAGE NEWS on hundreds of newspapers all over the world just last Saturday when Pres Bush (sigh) signed the new bill into law.

I never said that NOW today our means of transfer are cut off, I said that SOON (anyday now but 3 months at most) they will be cut off if LL doesn't do anything AND LL could face criminal prosecution. LL would never risk this, so bye bye casinos.

Sheesh people are blind and in massive denial here. No one ever saw this coming? LOL. Sad...

"You can still use your credit card to buy Lindens from Linden Labs at any time, for immediate use in-game. You can also use PayPal on external sites to buy Lindens,



Section 5364 requires financial institutions to adopt procedures and policies designed to block the flow of prohibited funding to the operators of the affected online gambling Websites. This provision does not become mandatorily effective until the federal regulators adopt implementing regulations. The Act allows the regulators 270 days (about July 2007) to write and adopt the regulations.

However, even though the prohibitions applicable to credit card companies and other financial institutions may not yet be in effect, the acceptance of such payments by the online gambling operators is still prohibited and criminalized under Sections 5363 and 5366.

Originally, pinball machines were a form of gambling. The player had no direct control over the results (aside from jiggling the table), but if they were lucky they could make quite a bit of money. The government put a ban on them. The creator of the pinball machines (as we know them now) made a new version that didn't payout, and included paddles for keeping the ball in play. These versions of pinball machines were deemed legal because there was an element of skill involved.

Extrapolating from this, MOST of the forms of gambling in SL involve this same level of skill or greater. Take tringo for example. The pieces you get are random, but how you place them is very much based on skill. Things like slot machines will, of course, be subject to this online gambling ban, but I feel there's sufficient cause for argument against banning the rest.

Interesting. Thanks for the info Hok. I thought there must be some kind of time slot to come up to code.

Hey also, does the 270 days apply to the banks, etc? If so, does that mean that the banks COULD start closing down payment transfers earlier, but just MUST before the 270 day expiration? I have read that FirePay and PayPal have already started cutting off transfers to casino and gambling portals.

If I had a casino in world, I'd start downgrading right about now. I'd say the given value of an in world casino just dropped a good 66% over the past week. I mean really, who would buy one, set one up now?

Excellent point. The online Poker Game Sites have been and continue to make a similar pont.


HOWEVER, It is highly uncertain whether this contention would stand up in court. Most U.S. jurisdictions apply the Dominant Factor test to determine if a contest is a game of skill or a game of chance. That test looks to which elements predominate (51%) in determining outcome of the game. If the elements of chance predominate, then it is a game of chance, notwithstanding that skill elements are important, but not predominant. Furthermore, the outcome is to be determined by the considering the nature of the game and the abilities of the average player coming to the game.

Yes. It appears that the banks can start complying with the terms of the Act voluntarily at any time. They would, however, have to consider the effect on the bank's profits from doing so before being required to do since they are under a fiduciary duty to their stockholders.

ummm...slingo and tring ect wouldnt be effected, as they arnt gambling, your paying a host, an owner and the players, the owner isnt paying your winnings, nor does he make more if u lose.

I have never played any of these games and i admit to being totally ignorant of how they work. However, the payment mechanism you describe sounds very similar to pari-mutual wagering on the outcome of animal races (horses an dogs) and that element has not prevented them from being classified as gambling. There too the operator does not make more if u lose and the payout comes from the other participants

Respecting the elemement of skill take a look at my post above about the test used by the courts to determine if a game is one of skill

Tringo IS gambling, however you needn't pay into it. It's still a contest to see who can get the most points, with the highest score getting the pot. Which piece you are given to place is randomly chosen from the grid, however how you place the piece takes personal reasoning based on what you believe the next piece will be, what's remaining to be placed, and whether or not you can or want to place a piece.

What worries me personally a lot more are the side effects:

Obscenity? hm... looks like online gambling is only the start. Of course, one would have to define obscenity first... my personal definition of obscenity would include dog shit on the sidewalk or horribly obese persons munching a burger, but I guess those christian congress clowns had something else in mind. Something I'd personally never call obscene, like the depiction of the human sex act in images taken of attractive people. Or attractive 3D avatars.

There are a lot of nice US laws when it comes to such "obscenity" in the clouded eye of the christian beholder. And the US government has already shown that it gives a shit for state laws (online gambling is now illegal in Nevada too) let alone the rest of the world (US law enforcements on credit card companies and services like PayPal will surely have an impact on Europe too).

What about the law against sodomy in Georgia, for example? Now that's a nice one. A georgian wife could be sentenced to 1 month - 20 years in prison for giving her husband a blowjob. Should be enforced onto the whole cyberspace, don't you think? Surely all those blowjob pictures and movies are an abomination in the eyes of Bush's god, an obscenity even. Not to talk of virtual roleplay blowjobs in computer games... ok, that was a bit far-fetched (but the fact that such a law really already exists and even calls the crime "sodomy" is mind-boggling, couldn't resist to throw that in here). But what about prostitution? Virtual online prostitution, paid with real money. Or L$.

Another interesting quote:



I love such "facts" based on statistics. Two hunters attempt to shoot a deer, one hits a tree to the left of the deer, the other one hits a tree on the right - the deer in the middle is statistically dead. That's a fact.

Anyway... looks like those poor teenagers have to be protected from gambling websites by banning those sites. It doesn't matter that your usual gambling website a) has a disclaimer stating that the access to and usage of their services is for adults only (what does that remind me of?) and b) even requires a credit card or alternative ways of electronic payment usually restricted to adults, in order to pay for their service. Also no word on the parental duty of supervision - all teenagers and even pre-teens have unlimited access to all those dangerous gambling... and to obscenity?
Well, I surely hope those over-enthusiastic congress folks don't ever take a closer look at online adult games or virtual 3D worlds. Boy, could they find obscenity there (right next to the gambling)... tons of it.

Why do I feel odd when I read about laws to control internet obscenity, signed with this same bill? Why do I think it won't stop with laws against online gambling? Why do I feel even worse upon reading that such laws are justified with the need to protect minors on the web? That it's taken for granted that minors have unlimited, unsupervised internet access these days, enabling them to access every service with an altoo open account registration?
Why do I wish someone would perform some Clinton-style sodomy on that amazing talking bush, to stop him from doing more harm? And why do I think it may have been wise to locate a visionary company, inventing the virtual 3D marketplace of the future, somewhere on the Bahamas instead of a christian theocracy?