Does advertising actually WORK?

You refuse to do what is right in principle because "it doesn't hurt anyone" and it serves your selfish interest. You acknowledge being a hypocrite, but don't care because "it's only one item for peat sake." You said you could sell it under your own trade name but refuse to put up.

It's not about whether or not it is a quality product. I find it offensive that you would engage in what is an unethical business practice and then pooh-pooh it because it happens to be a RL company that hasn't taken notice yet. We should stand for ethical business practices all the way around - NOT just when it suits us. That's why I find your hypocrisy ridiculous and contemptible.

(Not that the trademark / branding issue isn't interesting, but probably deserves its own thread, IMHO.)

So anyway, back when one of the roadside adplot owners was particle griefing the sim, I contacted the actual *advertiser* who was using the service. I was surprised to learn that the business owner was quite happy with the results she thought she was getting from the numerous locations where her ad was being displayed. Go figure.

I later had a long series of chats with the adplot owner and representatives. Now, I know some are just in it to extort neighbors into buying their plots, but I think this particular one actually believed a legitimate advertising service was being offered. And judging by the aforementioned advertiser's response, there's some evidence it might not be all delusional. So, I spent a little time with that adplot owner, describing an advertising model that would be *vastly* more profitable and more beneficial to the advertising business than any random roadside billboard operation could ever hope to be.

Now, I've no idea whether that person took me up on it, but I somehow feel vaguely bound not to discuss it in detail. On the other hand, it's not rocket-science if one has any exposure to current trends in RL marketing.

It's sad to think there could be legitimate ad services still paying tier on a pale shadow of what their businesses could be with just a little thought and a little more work. If they're really in it to provide an advertising service and they still own parcels where the subscriber's ads are appearing, they're wasting both capital and expense while delivering an inferior service.

But if there is no access to put prims there on either side because land is own or permissions are on for building if you're not group that allows to you to rezz a car you're car will be returned.
Sort of hard to drive when you car keeps vanishing to lost and found.
And that counts even if you use Linden road or water way right?
One would think it sort of makes taking a road trip across all the Linden roads or oceans bit pointless for travel? Maybe I am missing something.
I don't even know what roads I can use unless I built my own.

Lord, the view must be spectacular from your horse, Michael.

I was deliberately trying not to flame and merely asking a general question. Your camera was merely an example, as I'm sure lots of this goes on in SL.

You even admit that you're probably violating copyright laws and you admit that a poor product would make a difference. That's my point. You think your product's brilliant, but so could someone else whose product was crap. Yet you might both feel entitled to use an RL company's name for your respective products. Nikon or any other RL company might just think they're entitled to decide what products bear their name.

You obviously think otherwise. So we disagree. And not a flame in sight

Oh, and if your doing this for the community and not for profit, feel free to remit my share of your profits to an SL charity of your choice. Thanks.

I understand the implications and possible trouble with using a trademarked product. I'm an adult, and have been designing for years. The only place my (two) products have caused any dissention is here on the forums...the rest of the grid and world seem to only enjoy the design choices I've made.

I'm sorry this has turned the way it has. But when you criticize someone's work for no reason other than to prove a point or clarify trademark laws...it's a little disheartening.

Ah man...you guys are hardcore. And the funny thing is...there's no reason to be. There really isn't.

Why don't one of you AR me to Nikon, and get it done with already. Some of you are damn cut-throat, and for no good reason.

Hi Michael

I've been looking at this thread develop. Please dont think i'm ganging up on you, but I do have a serious question?

What would your take on things be if someone used a copybot etc to create an EXACT replica of your Nikon camera, so it was a like for like item as far as design goes and started selling it in SL as "Michael Bigwig's Nikon Camera"?

A couple of issues come to mind - someone has copied your design - how do you react? You have put a lot of effort into creating it - but hold on - Nikon put a lot of effort (and money) having the original (rl) version created... Would you be angry at the person who copied your product? But then again, you can - it was not your design...

And again from a LL point of view - what would happen if you filed a DMCA complaint against the person who copied your camera - what would they do? Would they uphold your complaint, or would they throw it out because the design/copyright is not yours?

Could get messy and confusing...

Gomez

You guy have no idea...I donate tons of my money to programs, companies, startups, and noobs...

When I tell you I'm not in SL for profit, I mean it. That's why it's so hard to take this kind of criticism. I only want to make the community happy, and I feel that I do.

A few 'nay-sayers' aren't going to change my business model. You can't please everyone all the time.

To answer your questions:

1) my camera's design is completely my own...I'm merely using the Nikon name. Even the textures aren't from a Nikon...they are from many different sources, most of which are taken by me at home.

2) if someone tried to take my SL item, that is different. I feel there is an unspoken thing among SL citizens. Whether you want to get technical or not, I think using a RL product name on my own creation is different than stealing another residents actual model and selling it...I created mine from scratch...they didn't. There is a principal difference, regardless the written law.

3) if someone wanted to 'sell my product' (and some do), I work out a percentage with them. Problem solved.

I hope I've been clear. Thanks for the input.

Let's say someone makes their own textures, puts it on a box, and starts calling it a GlowBox Designs Nikon camera. And they're not in it for the money, they donate to noobs, etc. And the textures are decent... so it's not like it is a crappy product... okay to do? They aren't taking anything from you, no copyright infringement...still okay, Michael? They are only trading on your name...

no point to prove, just a friendly warning and suggestion. heck I can't even criticize the work since I've never seen it.

I suppose I could nitpick and say that it doesn't have all the special design features of a real camera(nikon or otherwise), but then I could do the same for 'oak' furniture, or damn near anything else in SL... to me it's a pointless distinction.

I AM curious though why those 2 items are the only ones I really hear you mention in the forums... I assume you have more products than those

If Nikon could issue a Cease and Desist order and you would be required to comply -

Then ethically you are in the wrong.


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There are a lot of other SL products that do the same thing. It seems most SL Guns use the RL names on which they are based.

As well as many cars, etc.

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Basically as I understand this mindset - its -

Continue to get extra sales by trading on some RL name, until told to stop.

I clarified before the principle difference to me. Using another SL citizen's designs or brand directly, is different in my eyes. Second Life--whether admitted or not--does exist in a bit of a void. We are governed--although not entirely--by our own set of rules and principles. Like I said, I would never use another SL citizens work or brand and sell it...that's what I believe.

Please understand, I completely understand not only your opinions, but also trademark violation. There's no sense in creating 'scenarios' for me to respond to...I would never encroach on another SL citizens business. Using a multi-million dollar RL corporation on one of my products doesn't really fall into these same sets of principles. Calling my company out so bitterly isn't doing anything but create a problem that isn't there.

Bah. Whatever. Don't buy the camera then. Boycott it. I don't know what to tell you guys, I'm not in this to steal or run an illegal outfit.

OK. It's wrong.

I never said it wasn't. And if you guys want to pull the 'hypocrite' card on me...that's fine. I'm doing far more good in Second Life than bad. Sue me.

Unless the law is unethical ..

You knowingly violating a law that has yet to be enforced on you due to the trademark holder ignorance..

Such as Nikon not knowing about your cameras..

Is therefore unethical.

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I chose ethical rather than moral because "Ethics" and "Morals" are not the same thing. I have no idea whether it is immoral for you to sell said cameras.

Just change one letter...."Mikon." The cameras really are well made from what I've seen, what you call them is irrelevant to me.

LOL ..

Thats actually not a bad idea.

What if Nikon saw my camera, and loved it. What then? I think saying I'm doing it solely because Nikon is ignorant is not only an assumption, but a wrong assumption.

I do it because people like Nikon. Not for profit, not because Nikon doesn't know about it...I do it because people like it.

There really is no reason any of you should be so harsh on me. I have not, nor would I ever, steal another persons objects or brand and sell them. Using Nikons name on one product, is to me, quite different. We will have to agree to disagree here. I'm sorry some of you can't accept that without criticizing me.

Hmmm...heck. I like that. Why not.

Thanks.

{edit: want to hear a strange notion I have though...using 'Mikon' might be even worse than Nikon. They might feel I'm riding their coat-tails, and at the same time snubbing the company brand. Using the actual name is much better for them...does that make sense?}

Send them an email then explaining what you are doing in Second Life and obtain permission.

Until then it is Unethical.

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How morally wrong it is? Who knows? Maybe it isn't a big deal in the scheme of things.

There is no agreeing to disagree on this. Because its definitely straightforward. If you don't like being told its Unethical, that is unfortunate.

I have refrained from saying it was immoral.

Michael, seriously, I'd quit now and be *very* public about the fact you did, and do all you can to distance yourself from a 'Nikon' branded *anything*.

You will eventually get DMCA'd and sued, perhaps not for what you are doing, but for what you have *already done*.

Just getting a lawyer to defend yourself will cost a fortune, let alone losing, and your very postings here are damning enough to make it the easiest slam-dunk case I've ever seen.

You may yourself not consider it 'for the money' or 'all that bad' or whatever, but there is such a thing as civil and criminal prosecution and if anyone has laid out premeditated intent to flaunt the law and overtly use a brand name, you just have.

You are now 110% at the mercy of corporate lawyers on very likely on retainer, just *looking* for ways to show they are on the ball and 'doing' something of benefit to the client. So they can continue to justify the invoices they send in on a regular basis.

A corporation has no choice. It *has* to defend its brand name, copyrights and trademarks - to *not* do so would put "Nikon" in the public domain.

"Zipper" was a brand name once that wasn't defended properly - that's what happens. They *have* to sue you, to prevent every two bit company who feels like it from using the Nikon name.

* * * * *

You might think I'm out to get you, dislike what you are doing, hate you or something. I don't. I think you are a brilliant designer and a good person overall, who will succeed.

I paused for a looong time before writing this, because I'm pretty sure you'll dislike me for my words now. Which would be a real shame.

But that's the chance I'll take, because I'd really hate to see an enthusiastic talented guy like you learn this the hardest way.

It's all just words and trash-talk on a forum until there is a civil or criminal prosecution. Then, it's suddenly evidence.

*Please* reconsider, and good luck. Only hardcore jerks are going to be snarky, if you change your position on this.

No it doesn't. Actually, "My Con" is a great name for your product. It made me chuckle.

If you actually believe the name Nikon does not increase your sales, then change it to Nixon and see what happens.

You can rationalize it all the way to the bank, but you are only fooling yourself.

/me munches popcorn for lunch. Hopes Michael manages to avoid corporate sharks and wanders off wondering whether billboard advertising is worth the lindens.

I would think you would do better with your advertsing dollar by taking out small rental spaces in busy venues or pumping money into your Classified Ads then placing roadside billboard type advertising.

Billboards tend to be considered "Ad-Farming" even if they are attractively advertising legtimate products. That sort of negitive connotation alone would probably mean it's not the best way to promote your product.


...sorry for helping derail your thread

I think people used to use the roads.

Nowadays I don't think as many do.

Basically a billboard is only going to work if someone is driving leisurely by and enjoying themself.

If SL's lag/ban lines/road status/sim crossing/vehicle technology .. wont let them ..

Then they will be ignored.