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Search Keyword Spamming Has Begun!

Bradley Bracken
Goodbye, Farewell, Amen
Join date: 2 Apr 2007
Posts: 3,856
12-03-2007 19:47
From: Cristalle Karami
But it's not Google at the helm - it's LL, just licensing Google's technology. LL is the one setting the parameters for indexing. LL is the one who thinks it works, and hasn't changed it a lick since the first iteration of RC1.


OUCH! Well, that makes a big difference.

Darn.
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Bree Giffen
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Join date: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 2,715
12-03-2007 19:48
Well there's two things that can happen. Either LL will let it stay this way and searches will fall into complete irrelevance or LL will make adjustments to their search to remove object spamming and give us better search results. I think search is BIG thing in the list of things that LL considers important and hopefully we'll see things get better.
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Atashi Toshihiko
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Join date: 7 Dec 2006
Posts: 1,423
12-03-2007 19:55
From: Bree Giffen
Well there's two things that can happen. Either LL will let it stay this way and searches will fall into complete irrelevance or LL will make adjustments to their search to remove object spamming and give us better search results. I think search is BIG thing in the list of things that LL considers important and hopefully we'll see things get better.


If they haven't changed it a bit since the first RC, despite people mentioning the various new ways to game it (object spaming, many alt/bot accounts with profile picks, etc) then I don't have high hopes for them changing it much more in the future. I'm afraid that the new search has lost most of the "ooh shiney" and nobody will feel like working on it. After all, it's boring and not fun to fix things that are broken, it's fun and exciting to work on new things.

-Atashi
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12-03-2007 21:16
Begun? ::snicker:: no, it's just evolving
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Bree Giffen
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Join date: 22 Jun 2006
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12-03-2007 21:23
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
12-03-2007 21:27
From: Bree Giffen

Bree, they just want the pat on the back and any serious bugs. Design flaws? They are not listening. Classifieds being sorted by "relevance" among other classifieds is probably here to stay. Ill advised! I've already started planning my new ad budget and am happy to put a few hundred extra linden toward tier every week.
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
12-04-2007 00:31
OK, but this is what ticks me off.

Search for "sari" in the All tab.

You get 3 personal names before you get 1 for a friend of mine who runs a shop that sells saris. I happen to sell 4 times the numbers of saris that she does, and yet, she's listed first. Granted, she's my friend, so I would never begrudge her the sales, but I really DON'T understand how this whole thing runs. Is her shop more important in Search because "sari" is in her Title? WTF? How long do we have to make our freakin titles now???
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Cristalle Karami
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Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
12-04-2007 00:34
From: Oryx Tempel
OK, but this is what ticks me off.

Search for "sari" in the All tab.

You get 3 personal names before you get 1 for a friend of mine who runs a shop that sells saris. I happen to sell 4 times the numbers of saris that she does, and yet, she's listed first. Granted, she's my friend, so I would never begrudge her the sales, but I really DON'T understand how this whole thing runs. Is her shop more important in Search because "sari" is in her Title? WTF? How long do we have to make our freakin titles now???

But your friend is #1 if you search classifieds only.

This just goes to show how useless search all is for shopping.
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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12-04-2007 00:44
From: Cristalle Karami
But your friend is #1 if you search classifieds only.

This just goes to show how useless search all is for shopping.

Huh? She's number 13 in "sari" (mature).
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Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
12-04-2007 00:49
From: Oryx Tempel
Huh? She's number 13 in "sari" (mature).

Ah I guess I didn't have mature checked. Thought I did....
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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
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12-04-2007 00:57
From: Cristalle Karami
Ah I guess I didn't have mature checked. Thought I did....

I dunno. The whole thing makes zero sense. I have more objects (yes, honestly! I didn't cheat by adding a gajillion objects) listed under "sari" than she does, I paid more for my classifed than she did, and I have "sari saris" in my parcel description. I don't understand! Can someone help?
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Gummi Richthofen
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Join date: 3 Oct 2006
Posts: 605
12-04-2007 02:26
The key to this is that there are references in the Linden blog to the search now being done by a Google hardware solution. This is Google's sell-through to corporates who (shock, horror) don't hang their entire intellectual property out for easy spidering & searching on an extranet. It's basically a rackmount box that you let loose on your LAN, equipped with the relevant passwords and privileges to your sundry corporate data repositories. After some period of time (hah!) it mysteriously starts serving up a serach service, which you are not supposed to ask too many questions about and which is supposed to instantly transform your boring sausage factory in Gdansk into a sportswear and bikini boutique in Beverley Hills.

Or something like that.

This box uses some of the same search algorithms as *the* Google - or maybe it doesn't; they ain't disclosed. It might update the search logic in the course of a chat with Google Home Base - or it might not; you can't tell. Happily (!) there is a whole universe of Google-watchers, who have arisen because there are nice neat phenomena out there in search-land, such as the same search returning radically different results depending on when you do it. There's even a book - "Google Hacks" which describes this behaviour like it's really cool, instead of merely being incredibly annoying.

Personally, for corporate search platforms, I really like ISYS.
Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
12-04-2007 05:50
From: Oryx Tempel
Is her shop more important in Search because "sari" is in her Title?
Google is actually supposed to give preference to a keyword that matches the title than one that simply appears on the page (assuming both have the exact same relevance).

Search will probably make more sense if you look at the actual HTML page and then read up on how to improve your Google page rank for your "site". Not all of it will be relevant to SL, or Google's Search Appliance, but probably enough to give an edge.

---

There could be a few problems as well, some sites I glanced at seem to suggest that Google has a threshold for optimal "keyword density" and one for determining when a site is "keyword spamming" so a hair store that has "hair" in every object it sells *might* get a lower ranking than it should if GSA thinks it's "keyword spamming" (which makes perfect sense on the web).

Hopefully LL realizes that letting something that was designed to index pages of continuous human readable text index pages that contain computer generated item listings would have some bad consequences and adjusted things accordingly.
SuezanneC Baskerville
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Join date: 22 Dec 2003
Posts: 14,229
12-04-2007 06:05
I'm disappointed that what was a field primarily for humans to read, the description field, has been multipurposed. I suppose that applies to the name field as well.

Scripters have also used the description field for scripting purposes, to store data in.

It's like the old saying about trying to serve too many masters, it may not work out optimally.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
12-17-2007 04:27
The idea of creating hundreds of prims, all with different names and descriptions, to gain in the All search is limited. The webpage has a limit on the number of object details that it contains. E.g. mine has 148 objects listed, and there are a lot more there that are set for sale. 148 is a strange number to choose, but I have to assume that it's the limit. So not every object is listed, and taken account of in the ranking algorithm.

Somebody mentioned that the Title is an important ranking factor, and that's true. But it's nothing to do with object names/titles. It's the HTML page's Title which isn't seen by the user. SL repeats it at the top of the viewable page, adding to its ranking power because it's in an HTML heading tag, and it's the parcel's name.

Google puts very heavy weight on page Titles (that's an HTML tag, and isn't seen in a browser), and on inbound links (IBLs), to the extent that those 2 things are all that is needed to rank pages very highly in Google. In fact IBLs are all that is needed. I won't go into the technical reasons for it in this post - unless asked. A page has just one Title (in SL, it's the parcel name), and multiple IBLs (that's why IBLs have more ranking power than Titles).

In Google, page content isn't even looked at if they can get a large enough set of results from those 2 things.

The SL system will be a bit different. There are 4 basic ranking factors that I can see:-

HTML page Title tag (parcel name)
HTML page Description tag (parcel description) - (the Google engine ignores this)
HTML page content (names and descriptions of objects on the parcel)
IBLs (a simple count of IBLs)

SL will be able to adjust the weight given to each of the factors. They said that they would be tweaking it, and I'm sure that's what they mean.

SL mentioned things like word proximity (how close the words in the searchterm are on the webpage), and they may have adjustment knobs for things like that as well, but those are the 4 basic ranking factors.

Since the number of objects listed in the webpage for a parcel is limited, and since the heart of Google's concept is to put a great deal of weight on IBLs, effort is better spent by increasing the number of IBLs, although using objects shouldn't be overlooked, because it does get rankable content onto the webpage - up to a certain limit.
Anya Ristow
Vengeance Studio
Join date: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 1,243
12-17-2007 04:50
From: Bree Giffen
Well there's two things that can happen. Either LL will let it stay this way and searches will fall into complete irrelevance or LL will make adjustments to their search to remove object spamming and give us better search results. I think search is BIG thing in the list of things that LL considers important and hopefully we'll see things get better.


The old search is proof that LL does not care about search. They haven't tried anything at all to fix it. They never even fixed the problem of listings with leading spaces and special characters.

The new search is someone's pet project. It was done because someone thinks it's a cool idea or uses cool buzzwordy tech. When that someone has moved on to something else, search will remain fixed in whatever state it was left. That may have already happened.
Jesseaitui Petion
king of polynesia :P
Join date: 2 Jan 2006
Posts: 2,175
12-17-2007 05:25
From: Raymond Figtree
Right. I've got 4000 spare prims on my rental sim. So I can just fill a skybox full of 4000 cubes touting my rentals? Sure beats paying LL for an ineffective classified.

You are correct. But keep in mind that only works for the new "ALL" tab. There is still a "classified" tab as well :)

------------------------

When I first read of the new search I, like many of you, was happy and thought "Oh this is great! Now we will have a true search that will show me objects of what is really for sale on someones sim and people will be ranked by what they are actually selling" (Eg, no more people claiming to sell one thing and you get there and it isn`t there as it would now be listing via the products you had out). I thought this new search would give people who deserved exposure, exposure, based on things like their product count rather than a gamed traffic.

But boy was I wrong! And how did I overlook it? All people are doing, is rezzing hundreds of fake product boxes (empty prims), and flooding them with keywords.

This is a very disappointing search, and unfortunately, the only way you`re going to list is to play along.

One may say, "Well, isn`t that what was happening with people using campers to compete with high traffic areas?" Similar, but now it`s the other way around. You see, with traffic, some people really did "earn" their high traffic count, and then others CHEATED (via campers, etc) to raise their count.

But with this new search, innocent people who really do have good product amount for sale, now have to be the ones to participate in putting out dummy prims or there`s no way they`re going to list.

Along with these dummy prims, it seems both your land title AND description have to have your choice keywords in them as well if you want any chance of listing on the first page. It seems a land description, title, and tons of prims with the same keyword is a sure way to get you a top notch listing.

I have played around with it, and this is what I`ve concluded.

....but what`s going to happen when everyone catches on and parcels/sims have THOUSANDS of dummy prims, then who gets to be on top? Something needs to change.

Maybe i`m wrong. And that is a possibility (And I hope so), but so far I have not seen anything other then what I have described above.

I will assume people will begin to rent additional parcels on a sim in order to be given a higher prim count so they can do some keyword flooding. However, there are many people who do not use the "all" feature and instead opt to use the "classified" search tab. I didn`t check it out yet, but if it works the same was as the old system, a classified ad will still definitely be beneficial.

I will say, this search is still in Beta, but for reasons you all know (:)), I don`t think the "final release" will be much different.

From: Argent Asbrink
If that's the case, it's the most flawed, slapnuts business platform in the entire world.
Indeed.
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Nina Stepford
was lied to by LL
Join date: 26 Mar 2007
Posts: 3,373
12-17-2007 05:31
every browser ive ever seen has displayed the page title.
From: Phil Deakins


Somebody mentioned that the Title is an important ranking factor, and that's true. But it's nothing to do with object names/titles. It's the HTML page's Title which isn't seen by the user. SL repeats it at the top of the viewable page, adding to its ranking power because it's in an HTML heading tag, and it's the parcel's name.

Google puts very heavy weight on page Titles (that's an HTML tag, and isn't seen in a browser), and on inbound links (IBLs), to the extent that those 2 things are all that is needed to rank pages very highly in Google.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
12-17-2007 05:40
From: someone
No one in this thread up until this point that I can see. But I will say it now. SL is not a game. It's a business platform


Witch basically will be as short as it was a game. If they don`t start correcting issues and problems with in this THING they call SECOND LIFE. :rolleyes:
Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
12-17-2007 05:44
From: someone
Bree, they just want the pat on the back and any serious bugs. Design flaws? They are not listening. Classifieds being sorted by "relevance" among other classifieds is probably here to stay. Ill advised! eek.


Do you expect them to hear us? These are the same "THINGS" that brought us VOICE" and all the problems related to the crashing and other BS. And they said it was ALL GO for voice. Sure! :rolleyes: Well atleast they have learne to post hyper links correctly :rolleyes:
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
12-17-2007 06:50
From: Nina Stepford
every browser ive ever seen has displayed the page title.

Not in the viewable page part of the browser, Nina. It's shown on the top bar, but it's not part of the viewable page in any browswr. It is in the HEAD section of the HTML code, which isn't viewable.

I have to correct what I wrote about there being a limit on the number of objects in the webpage. I've discovered that the reason that the reason why many of my for sale objects are not showing is because they aren't set to show in search. There may be a limit but, if there is, I'm not aware of it.
Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
12-17-2007 07:21
From: Alesia Schumann
...Otherwise, those of us who just want to stay relevant will have to fight with those who can rezz thousands of useless prims on their land.


/me rethinks her strategy of using megaprims to keep the count low. "ONE meter cubes. Lots and lots and lots of one meter cubes".
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SuezanneC Baskerville
Forums Rock!
Join date: 22 Dec 2003
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12-17-2007 07:35
From: Bree Giffen

One thing that's annoying about the new search system is the way they have big red blobs and arrows covering all the results up.
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So long to these forums, the vBulletin forums that used to be at forums.secondlife.com. I will miss them.

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Oryx Tempel
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Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
12-17-2007 08:01
From: Phil Deakins

Since the number of objects listed in the webpage for a parcel is limited, and since the heart of Google's concept is to put a great deal of weight on IBLs, effort is better spent by increasing the number of IBLs, although using objects shouldn't be overlooked, because it does get rankable content onto the webpage - up to a certain limit.

Would "inbound links" in this case be picks in profiles? Doesn't that just allow for gaming of profiles, e.g. "I'll pay you to put my shop in your profile?"
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
12-17-2007 08:06
From: Oryx Tempel
Would "inbound links" in this case be picks in profiles? Doesn't that just allow for gaming of profiles, e.g. "I'll pay you to put my shop in your profile?"

Yes - profile Picks, and LMs that people have. SL said that they come from groups too but I haven't seen how that can be done, unless it's group owned land and group members count as IBLs.

SL searches have been gamed for ages - Places - so this isn't any different. But since it's Google technology, it provides more ways to game it :)
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