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Germany and 'that' ban

Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
09-01-2009 09:39
From: Scylla Rhiadra
Hmmm. Now we get into deep waters. What about "confidential" truths? What if someone publishes the "truth" about your financial dealings? About your shady past? In SL, the "truth" about your RL would be a violation of the CS, under "disclosure" . . .

Maybe this could be more complicated than it seems?


But then you are talking about violation of contract, not libel or slander. As for my shady past, it is public record.
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Smith Peel
Smif v2.0
Join date: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,597
09-01-2009 09:40
They never gonna ban sex in SL.

















They might, however, ban everything but hetero missionary, under the covers, with the lights off, and only if we making a baby. :rolleyes:
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
09-01-2009 09:44
From: Chris Norse
But then you are talking about violation of contract, not libel or slander.

Well, with regard to the ToS and CS, that's rather begging the question. The REASON it is part of THAT contract in the first place is because it has been determined by LL that "truth statements" about RL are in some way at least potentially harmful, no? So, if the truth is always a defence, WHY was that particular determination made? Why are there rules (even in RL) prohibiting us from revealing all that we know about someone else?

I would argue that it is because the truth is NOT always a defence. Sometimes, the truth can be used maliciously, with an intent to harm. And it is that intent that is at issue.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
09-01-2009 09:52
From: Scylla Rhiadra
I'm sure this is an accurate characterization, even if (as you say) a bit oversimplified. I have to confess, though, that it makes little sense to me. If one of the things that defines libel is that it brings the complainant into "hatred, ridicule or contempt," how can it be that it ceases to be libel merely because it is the truth, even while it CONTINUES to bring the complainant into "hatred, ridicule or contempt"?

My cavil here isn't with your explanation: it's with what appears to be the inconsistencies in the law.


One of the big differences between the law in the US and the law in the UK? and Canada?.

Here the truth is always a defense, plus we have wide latitude with regard to stating opinion and when talking about "public personalities".

The law in the UK is very different, I was reading an article last week about how the UK is used by various people as the place to file libel and slander charges, usually against American journalists and authors since the action would pretty much be dismissed in the States.

Say you are a Saudi prince who gives money to group which supports the abolition of Lichenstein. I write a book reporting that. In the States, the judge rules against you. But the book was published in the UK, so you file charges there and win a huge settlement.
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I'm going to pick a fight
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“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur

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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
09-01-2009 09:53
From: Scylla Rhiadra
I'm sure this is an accurate characterization, even if (as you say) a bit oversimplified. I have to confess, though, that it makes little sense to me. If one of the things that defines libel is that it brings the complainant into "hatred, ridicule or contempt," how can it be that it ceases to be libel merely because it is the truth, even while it CONTINUES to bring the complainant into "hatred, ridicule or contempt"?

My cavil here isn't with your explanation: it's with what appears to be the inconsistencies in the law.
It doesn't seem to me to be inconsistent. I guess the basis of libel is that it damages your good name. If you don't have a good name to start with, or if the good name is undeserved and the material complained about is merely bringing that to light, then there's no damage, or none that's not, ultimately, self-inflicted.

It's *an element* of libel that the material complained about tends to injure your reputation. It's *another* element that it's untrue. *Both* need to be there -- often with some other elements, too -- before it can be libelous, as opposed to hurtful or upsetting.
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
09-01-2009 09:55
From: Innula Zenovka
It doesn't seem to me to be inconsistent. I guess the basis of libel is that it damages your good name. If you don't have a good name to start with, or if the good name is undeserved and the material complained about is merely bringing that to light, then there's no damage, or none that's not, ultimately, self-inflicted.

It's *an element* of libel that the material complained about tends to injure your reputation. It's *another* element that it's untrue. *Both* need to be there -- often with some other elements, too -- before it can be libelous, as opposed to hurtful or upsetting.

Ah, ok. This does make sense. Your last para in particular makes clear something that was certainly implied in your initial description, but about which I wasn't entirely sure.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Rock Vacirca
riches to rags
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,093
09-01-2009 11:13
From: Innula Zenovka
Over-simplifying, rather, but in the UK, one of the elements of libel is that the material complained about tends to bring the complainant into what they used to call, "hatred, ridicule or contempt" among "right-thinking people" (that is, regardless of whether it's true, do the jury think it's objectionable?). That's the harm caused. If the material is true, though, regardless of the hatred, ridicule or contempt into which it may tend to bring the complainant, then that's a defense.

Look at it this way -- the statement, "X has a conviction for possessing child pornography" is likely to bring him into hatred, ridicule and contempt, whether or not it's true. If it's true, though, it's not libelous.


However, a judge might have issued a gagging order, and if you still publish information about that person, whether true or not, you are in violation. Same goes for state secrets, revealing the truth can still land you in hot water, and there are many other restrictions on free speech, whether it is true or not.

Rock
Rock Vacirca
riches to rags
Join date: 18 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,093
09-01-2009 11:16
From: Smith Peel


They might, however, ban everything but hetero missionary, under the covers, with the lights off, and only if we making a baby. :rolleyes:


and with one foot touching the floor
Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
09-01-2009 11:17
From: Rock Vacirca
and with one foot touching the floor

Or tentacle.
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Lear Cale
wordy bugger
Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
09-01-2009 11:52
From: Scylla Rhiadra
My cavil here isn't with your explanation: it's with what appears to be the inconsistencies in the law.
Not sure which part you don't understand, but to be libel or slander, it HAS to be false, and with malice aforethought (at least, in the US).

Stating what you believe to be the truth can be a violation of privacy or a nondisclosure agreement, or can even downright rude, but by definition, it isn't slander or libel.
Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
09-01-2009 12:44
From: Rock Vacirca
However, a judge might have issued a gagging order, and if you still publish information about that person, whether true or not, you are in violation. Same goes for state secrets, revealing the truth can still land you in hot water, and there are many other restrictions on free speech, whether it is true or not.

Rock
Sure. All I was trying to do was explain libel. If publishing the truth puts you in contempt of court or breach of the Official Secrets Act (in the UK) or breaks your duty of confidentiality in certain circumstances, you may well find yourself in trouble, though not for committing libel.
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
09-01-2009 14:09
From: Innula Zenovka
Sure. All I was trying to do was explain libel. If publishing the truth puts you in contempt of court or breach of the Official Secrets Act (in the UK) or breaks your duty of confidentiality in certain circumstances, you may well find yourself in trouble, though not for committing libel.

Have you and Rock submitted a post to Jig's "what do you do in RL" thread? I know someone there was asking about lawyers in SL . . . :)
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Scylla Rhiadra
Clarissa Lowell
Gone. G'bye.
Join date: 10 Apr 2006
Posts: 3,020
09-01-2009 14:14
From: Lear Cale

Stating what you believe to be the truth can be a violation of privacy or a nondisclosure agreement, or can even downright rude, but by definition, it isn't slander or libel.


It can be. There is a level of responsibility. It can't be reckless and reputation-destroying.

Just put things in opinion form or question form. Use the words if and allegedly. That will usually skirt the danger.

It's still awful but it's legal. How else do tabloids get away with printing outright lies. This, and also they pay people to act as 'source' even if they were not.

Allegedly.
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Lear Cale
wordy bugger
Join date: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 3,569
09-01-2009 15:41
From: Clarissa Lowell
It can be. There is a level of responsibility. It can't be reckless and reputation-destroying.
If you're not lying, it's not called libel, slander, or defamation, regardless of the results.
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
09-01-2009 17:15
Well, here's some food for thought:

The game Postal 2 is banned in stores in Australia. YET- its perfectly OK to buy the digital download??


The guys who pass these laws most likely never heard of or played video games.

The kid who puts the blame on Counter Strike? Part of the "I dont want to take responsibility for my own actions" culture thats developed.
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