The role of Infohubs

Hello,

My name is Antonio. I came onto Second Life on 11/15/2008 and actually did not go till the 17th i believe. Upon arrival i went to the island where no one knew anything. I then pressed a button and then appeared here in Bear where i was lucky enough to meet people who wher seasoned. These people are the only reason that i stayed. I did not know what i was doing and if i did not have people being nice i would have left immediately. I am lucky enough to be able to call some of the people i met my friends and if there is any thought the people there helping newbies are there to help and is great. Lias you need to get a grip because people need to know what they are doing and so if they need to ask questions then so be it dont complain that people are getting help. Every single person at one point or another was a newbie i have only been on like 2 weeks now and let me tell you i am still very confused and ask my friends on a regular basis for help. Without the people at bear i promise myself and others like myself would have quit on day one.

Antonio

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/3069651032_f88d961259_o.jpg



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Yes very good ........ Day one and the sim is indeed full with a 50 person allowance. What Lias does NOT tell you is that she has eight people CAMPING and a club full of people! What she also does NOT tell you is that one of her friends came to the hub who happens to be another hub builder and land owner and opened a debate about this! Of course this attracted more people than normal into the hub. Lias was invited to come and join the debate but prefered to chat via Im to her friend. Lias requested that some of us leave which we were happy to do. What more can I say? The more people Linden allow on the server the more she intends to fill it up! Lias has confirmed this to me. The regulars vacated the hub tonight despite the fact that Lias had at least eight people camping in her club and on the paintings in her school! A fact confirmed by non other than a Second Life mentor.

I always have a bit of a chuckle when someone says something like this. =^-^=

As I said in the post you quoted, those were just some initial recommendations I hoped to get comments on. It was in no way an exhaustive list.

I would prefer if the Lindens would set up Infohubs on full regions, or perhaps in conjunction with residents groups who also shared the mission. I am not in favor of any limited access policy based on avatar age, particularly since one of the stated missions of Infohubs is to serve as public meeting spaces.

Resource control and other issues presented here are surely important topics, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss the role of Infohubs and how to achieve that goal.

One thing I've been puzzling about is how the "Bear regulars" formed. Well, I'm operating on the premise that this group is generally welcoming to new residents as well as being social among themselves, and that's what I've seen the very few times I've been in that sim. If that's not generally the case, I guess I mean to ask what would encourage a group with those characteristics to form.

We have plenty of counter-examples: InfoHubs that are largely vacant, and Welcome Areas filled with the real scum of the grid (and a few intrepid Mentors and other helpers, mostly lost in the inane hubbub).

Is there something special about Bear that made it work (for some value of "work"?

Thanks, I'm glad to know I get recognized once in a while. (^_^)y

FWIW - here's my experience/feedback from the Isabel Infohub:

The Good: Linden gave local landowners the ability to build up the Infohubs to match the 'neighborhood'. In Isabel's case, Shelter folk built up the Isabel Infohub, and specifically designed it to cater to new residents.

Isabel specifically is uniquely setup to handle new residents, and the Shelter considers it a good thing that some new residents spawn there.

The Bad: Linden appears to police Infohubs no differently than any other Governor-owned land. It took many months of begging simply to get Linden to turn off scripts, and disable push. Even that is not enough, because new folks continue to experience grief and do not understand the concept of an abuse report.

Often, new residents come up to the Shelter begging us to intervene about X griefer, when we have absolutely no authority to do so. All we can do is calmly suggest to them that they hang out inside the Shelter where the environment is more controlled.

We do experience a sim-full condition much more often than others in part due to the infohub, however rarely do the numbers hanging at the Isabel infohub exceed 10-15 avatars. The Shelter is usually so busy that it itself limits the number of avatars that can congregate at the Infohub.

Point of note, however: Travis has been 'retired' from the Shelter for the past year, so I may not be up to speed on the current state of things at the Infohub (although I doubt much has changed). Take my comments with a '2007' grain of salt

They formed in the summer of 2007. Linden Lab has started promoting free accounts and then was beta testing voice. At first Linden Lab posted links to the Welcome areas for people to beta test voice before it was rolled out across the grid. Back then only welcome areas were meant for mass gathering and Linden Lab felt compelled to adhere to their own definition of these areas. Then people complained about all of the greifers in the welcome areas. So Linden Lab expanded their list to beta test voice to incliude some infohubs. Sadly, Bear was on that revised list. In July of 2007 I was in my property in Bear that border's the sim line of Gealain. I had ten people there and tried to teleport in another. I saw a huge mass of green dots at the hub. I just assumed that some region has crashed and thrown those people there. I walked up the road and asked them why they were there. They said Linden Lab told them that they could come there and chat. I asked them to move on so I could use the avatar spots. Cam Cardiff yelled 'down with big business' and started the Bear Buddies as a protest group to tier payers demanding use of resources.

And that is how that group was developed. Just a bunch of loiterers taking over a free parcel because they wanted to. After they told me I had to pay to join their group and then ask them to move some members out of the Bear Infohub when I wanted to use the sim - I asked LL to increase the avatar limit. It was a quiet sleepy sim up until that time. I had heard of the spitewalls the builder of the hub had erected in 2006 and 2007 to force some parcel owners to move - but I was never motivated by morbid curiosity to see this myself. So now its a mini waterhead.

I did point out to them that no even semi-successful creator boasts that they are 'regulars' of a virtual parking lot. Because people who use the platform as was originally intended do not take pride in parking their avatars in one spot for several hours a week doing nothing.

My builds are not intentionally ugly. I never claimed to be a builder. My school is a prefab I bought and modified to fit on the long thin parcel there.

Linden Lab just hired a fellow to bring in the Premium accounts. It is odd they want to encourage residents to go premium while promoting free parking lots as a form of online entertainment. I guess since LL never made the Infohubs work they decided to take lemons and make lemonade - but they ended up supporting parcels that create thousands of abuse reports a year. Not exactly good urban planning. Hopefully some people like like Curbside can help LL fix this problem.

I see M. Linden just accepted my info I sent him. Perhaps he has a opinion about this that he would like to share with us.

Okay, I guess that's kind of a dead end. At best it would have been dicey to generalize from a single data point. If we had to devise an explanation for why a social group formed at Bear and not elsewhere, I suppose it would be some combination of random chemistry, shared adversity, and perhaps one or more charismatic leaders. Probably not anything one can readily reproduce (nor prevent) by choice of architecture, landscaping, and layout.

Anyway, so just as a strawman: What if each InfoHub were carved from the center of a full Linden-owned sim, and surrounded by rotating-leased "mall" space managed kind of like Luna Oaks (only not so lackadaisically)? The idea is to bring some rich and changing content--resident-created products for sale--into the area, so there's something to do there besides just mill around, and to ensure that there's no other avatar-intensive demands on the sim. I'm also trying to avoid the "Welcome Area" effect, with vast amounts of space dedicated to the InfoHub, but no content beyond other avatars.

Of course, the InfoHub itself should have useful and up-to-date content, too, and interactive experiences--games and self-directed learning; something similar to what's found at Ross, perhaps. That's true regardless of where the place is sited, and should be retro-fitted to the Welcome Areas, assuming they survive intact.

I guess Welcome Areas have to be addressed somehow. I'm sorry for the "scum of the grid" comment, Immy, but you know as well as anyone that much of what happens at, e.g., Waterhead is not remotely welcoming to new residents. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about it--trying to disband the dysfunctional social groups in these centers would probably be like Whack-A-Mole: those residents would go somewhere and act just as much the socially challenged basement-dwellers that they do now. It's just kind of a shame to waste four sims on them, and to drop in unsuspecting newbies for the amusement of the congregated lamers. Other than better enforcement--including outright bans for racist and other hate-speech in voice--I don't have a clue what could help with those wastelands.

It's an interesting time to tackle InfoHubs as part of the New User Experience--in theory. But I've noticed that LL is extraordinarily prone to "solving" problems by dumping them on external contractors and then refusing to think, talk, or do anything else about them until some time after the spectacular failure of that initiative. For example, has *anyone* outside LL been contacted by this Big Spaceship outfit (http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/11/03/transforming-the-second-life-experience/)? My money is on them dreaming up some web-based standalone something-or-other--probably goddamn Flash-based so as to foil any attempt to link it in-world--and unconnected to any content management system so it will be out of date before it's released and utterly hopeless to maintain. That's if we ever see anything from it at all (as witness the much-heralded Forums/Blog upgrade, now two months past due).

GAH!!! *pokes you in the nose* You're apologizing for a sense of humor! (>_< Bad Qie! (>_< I thought it was bloody hilarious. (^_^)

The way I see it is... HEY! SL is a slice of life, after all. Think about all the easy loitering places in RL; Arcades, malls, convenience stores, skate parks and such. If they're not rife with employees or security they will fill up with people more than willing to 'park' their bodies there and just muck around all day. The internet has it too. With the *chan boards and such and their basic rule of "there are no rules" it just becomes humanity amplified. (^_^)

My personal preference for an idle-time hangout has been Hanja, not only because it was my noob landing point... But, because the quad is 4 sims that are meeting in their corners. It can hold TONS of avatars, has none of the hangups of sharing land with other owners, and has lately been one of the easier LMs to find in Help Island which means it's a great way to meet new people. (^_^)

Sometimes it's time for some good dumb-fun. A little loitering, pestering, and heckling is a good release after a long day of just about anything. And, when someone comes in genuinely asking for help... No probelm... I switch into "helpful mode" in a split second. In some ways, I think it makes me a bit more approachable, because it looks like I'm having tons of fun (and I am) and when the questions come rolling in, it's like "Hey! Join the party!" =^-^=

Now, I'm not addressing Bear here... That place is another story altogether. Like any other loitering spot, it's a different clique than my own and not exactly the fault of any one person or party. It's a part of what makes SL popular for a certain type of person. And, I loathe the idea of considering any kind of person undesirable. If the Bear Lodge clique can be described as undesirable, then so can I, so who am I to judge? (=_=)

It's the old 'raindrop taking responsibility for the flood' thing. Who knew that human nature would exist in SL so strongly? Consider all this time we have people that talk about RL staying in RL, yet, here it is. (^_^)y

They? The woo-tan group, Bear regulars, have been there since the start of 2006.



Not even close to the truth. Bear buddies was formed as a group of friends to buy some land in Bear, because it was available. We talked about that long before you ever started to build your clubs and this nonsense.

If you are so arrogant to assume anyone ever would form a group because of you, well, go ahead. But really, everyone just have a good laugh about your silly battle.



Thank you again for the generalization. Racism is formed with idea's like that... "they" and "the group", "they take over"... It gives an insight in the way you think.
You never once tried to get to know the people that meet each other at the infohub.
As oppose as I tried, Cam tried, and much other did. I can even pull out the chatlogs to proof it. But you are so stubborn and blinded, you have no ability to see that.
Which is a shame.

Bear infohub is appealing to many people, since in contrast to other infohubs, it has many intelligent people, having interesting conversations.
When a person steps in, calling everyone a griefer and basically tells them to scram, it falls first in total disbelief, then in a grand laughter. I don't have to tell anyone why.



Another very arrogant statement. Who is Lias Leandros to tell anyone what to do? And yes, since the group was formed to buy land together, which costs money, you have to pay. Unlike you, we do things together.



Making accusations on "say hear" is not very intelligent and insulting to the builder of the hub. She made the hub on request to serve a need. I know for a fact that no one ever was asked to leave, let alone be "forced" to do so.
Why you make the remark it is a "mini waterhead" now in that context is a mystery to me. Not only it has no link to the situation, nor does it have any "regulars" that even remotely are like the "regulars" at waterhead. Quite the contrary.



I do take pride to be a regular of Bear infohub. I made many friends there. Whether I am a successful creator, I let other people decide that. I resent boasting, like: I make the best this or that. I work 95% of the time in SL, and the other 5% i goto bear to have a talk with friends. But please, go head and call me a loiterer or whatever. I do not mind.

This platform was originally intended for people all over the world to meet each other, understand each other and build a world together as a means to do this.
So, in effect, communicating is the first priority. And a place where people can meet each other, talk and chat, like Bear infohub is the best way to do this.



Yet you claimed in the previous paragraph that "no even semi-successful creator boasts that they are 'regulars' of a virtual parking lot". If that did not apply to you, then i would wonder how you could get inside the mind of someone else. I did not see any mention of being a psychologist in your profile.



I guess that M. Linden had a good laugh today about your parking lot rant.

To be honest, I will make an assumption too: When the open sim system will go in effect somewhere next year, you will be a long gone. Since your clubs will not be lucrative any more. And we will all have a good laugh about how you made a fool of yourself calling the good people at Bear infohub names. The good thing in SL is that you can make a new avatar and start again. So there is still hope for you.

I get the feeling Lias and the Bear people will still both be there when the Linden Research lights are shut off for the last time someday.

I'm a huge believer in 'no refund' but in this case, sheesh, buy 'em all out, nuke it from orbit and leave a region-sized crater capped at 2 avatars max with a little historical marker, as a warning to the future and any aliens that happen by.

The Violet infohub has it's own group as well. Violet is a completely Linden owned sim though, unlike Bear and a few others.


I'm sure this has been mentioned owning land in an infohub sim sucks. I have a big chunk of land in Barcola. I often can't get there though because the sim is full of new players that land or gather at the infohib in the old city sims.

Now, who in their right mind would build four clubs in a region that has an infohub with number 1 of the visitorslist and then start complaining about it?

There is no one to buy out but me since I am the only one paying to use those resources.

More than likely - like the war in Jesse - it will go on and on. I was here before the road, before the telehub and before the infohub. Absolutely no one has said anything to convince me that I should pick up thousands of prims to make way for a parking lot that came way after I was here. If anything the hut can be easily moved.

The first thing I built in Bear in 2005 was a club - and I recieved cash rewards from Linden Lab because it was in the top 20 of traffic (before gaming and camping) That is when clubs were profitable. Of course only one club can function at a time.

What I wrote about the start of the Bear buddies are the Facts. That group was created after July 2007. Then they bought land in 2007, tried to develop events, squabbled and sold it. I knew the builder of the hub squabbled with people who owned land in Chief because they pointed their product walls toward the hub - I heard she had rezzed a few spitewalls even way back then - but I never got involved or went to see. I did think it was a bit much concern over a parking lot. When I could nto get more than 10 people in the sim last year thats when it became a issue for me. Consider me niave. I really did not think that Linden Lab would place any value on a abandoned Infohub project over a customer that has paid since 2005. I still do not knwo why they would. But I do see by this thread that they now recognize there may be some valid issues and are trying to create solutions. I am happy to see that my squeaky wheel is receiving some oil. I do hope that we are not handed alot of more non-solutions.

what?

Amen., Ingrid.

I have no idea what she's talking about. I don't have any clubs, I've had my land in Barcola for far longer than the infohubs ever appeared. My store has been at that location for years.

Saii is saying that I have four clubs in Bear (although I have three) and that I should not since the parking lot is there and I should pay tier and let the parking lot overflow while I beg loiterers to allow me to use what I pay for - and no matter what I will not agree to that. And I will not give Linden Lab the land I have had since 2005.

I think that was about your infamous friend, who decided to put up a penis for sale on a large vendor pointed towards the "abandoned" infohub.

I don't think he did this, because he thought the infohubs were abandoned. He just tried to get sales selling body parts. Tasteless, immature and of course ground to have it covered to the extend that new people arriving in SL would not be confronted with this.

This friend of you has attacked people in the infohub multiple times as well (see my other thread) with racist talk, about how they should deport non-americans etc.

Such in the line of your behaviour, it seems that certain species bond together, since he gave you his land not too long ago, to have it made into the second or third club.
Forgive me not to be able to tell what is what, with as many parcels you have bought the last year.

You can make up stories what you want, but there are too many people that know the whole truth, my dear Lias.

As you can tell from my post count, I do not post much. Only when there's really something bad going on. And in my humble opinion. this kind of accusations, constant lies about the truth and disturbing the peace within a community is not needed.

It is indeed clear something has to be done about this situation.

For the best interest of everyone involved, people like Lias or her friend should not be in the same region as an infohub, since this is clearly a bad experience for new SL users.

Personally when i would land in such nonsense i would think the people would have lost it and this was not an interesting place. In fact, when i landed in SL for the first time, I zapped randomly and got into some BDSM church, that being years ago, but still.
I thought that the people here are silly, logged off and uninstalled SL.

Yet, because of some friends i gave it another try and i loved the building aspect, together with meeting some interesting people. And guess what, that was at Bear infohub.

Lias was never around, no club was on the sim, that being start 2006, until somewhere mid 2007 she walked up and started calling everyone a griefer, including me.

At the start this fell in great laughter, even to the point funny gestures were made with her ever so annoying voice. But at some point her harrasment is getting old and annoying. It is hurtful for SL, the people involved and generally very irritating, given that there is constant lies about the truth.

I resent people that lie. Those who twist the truth to the benefit of their cause.

And I am very sorry to get so personal. I have no idea if that is etiquette in forums, because I never use forums, other then to seek information. Forums have so much people venting their opinion, it's just squabbling, like you so perfectly say.

However, for this particular issue I make an exception. It is in all grounds wrong, hurtful and very insulting to many people what you are doing, Lias Leandros.

Why would someone build multiple clubs in the same sim?

Or at all?

The Chief victims were selling jewelry. I think some may have been freebies so the infohub builder went vigilante and there was some squabbling. The penis sales were across the street. The infohub builder complained to the owner of that product (even though she has no vested interest in the sim) and he moved the product into his store away from her sensitive eyes. This sort of abuse-of-power and harassment has been going on unchecked for many years.

CLUB SCHOOL. There is nothing but classrooms and job information on the parcel I pay for across from the parking lot. If I wanted to suck noobs out of a parking lot I would have a club where they could see it from the parking lot. My venues are down the road, across the bridge and around a corner. I have absolutely no use for that abandoned Linden project that has become a greifer hangout.

That's ok. Facts obviously are not important.

Now your making sense.

Move the hut. I was here since 2005. Hut came in 2006. Loitering went out of control in 2007. Time for positive change.

I paid tier in 2006 and was off on other projects. I am of the mindset that a parking lot full of loiterers should have no impact on my plans when I am planning to use something I pay for. They should move and if they won't then the service provider I pay should move them. That lot was set up to welcome new players to the sim. LL changed the definition in 2007. So LL needs to make it work for everyone then. Don't ask me to move thousands of prims - move the hut and be done with it. Lias<-squatter's rights.

Your saying you would continue to harass me but it is not fun anymore?

I am happy to see that at least one of you realize that your daily antics just prove my point: A parking lot full of greifers and bored chatters desperate for negative attention.

But you just posted that Bear buddies was a group formed in 2006.

Second Life is not a popularity contest. The teen grid is to your left. This is a business run by adults. I pay to use resources and I have every intention of using them without being harassed. You and your pals can block the entrance to my venue during events, teleport people out of the venue and send out grefing alts all you want. You have to figure that after two years of hearing my broken record on this subject - that I am not going to change my mind. Infohub's are a abandoned project that mutated into one of the worst blights on the mainland.

I was never one to get involved in chatrooms - so I do not see the appeal.

oh Hi Argent.

I have themed builds to compliment the teachings of my venue training school. I really only use one. The other two we may have activities in - but none function at the same time.

I was thinking 'bar crawl'. Different themes so folks have a variety. I have two office buildings and my school there on three more parcels. Oh, and a huge pool with a huge slide.

My Second Life - My Imagination. And my tier payments.

Thank you Lias. By not replying nor denying some of the things I said, you just made the point I wanted to make.

Enough said.

Please do not harrass me or let any of your "staff" do this anymore in Second Life too, thank you.
I have muted you for that sole reason.

Have a great time Lias. And good luck with your parking lot loitering chats, it's very entertaining.

Oh btw: I never said a particular group was formed in 2006, i was referring to Bear "regulars". And the jewelry shop came long after the penis vendor from your friend. It merely shows at what point you came into play, because you have no idea what happened before that time.

Here's a screenshot of the protest against "Adult" entertainment


The penis vendor of your friend is under the big box. It's showing the same spot where NCI now has it's great stuff for newbies. Which is a very welcome addition to the infohubs.


"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge."

o/