Test Needed: Inappropriate return of older objects if parcel is full
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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10-06-2006 08:32
Please check this post for further details. Can someone who "owns land" on the test grid PLEASE check the following behavior on the test grid? Player A:On a parcel that you own, place a number of prims, until the prim allocation is almost full. Deed some of them to a group. Player B:This player should have NO special privileges with regard to Player A or his/her parcel. They don't own the parcel or belong to the group that some of the prims were deeded to. They do not have edit rights on Player A's stuff.Enter Player A's parcel, and attempt to rez objects until you exceed the parcel limits. Expected behavior:Player B should not be able to exceed the available prims on the parcel. WHAT I AM AFRAID YOU WILL FIND:Player B will be able to res MORE prims than the parcel has free, and doing so will start RETURNING some of Player A's prims to him, with a system-generated message that Player B returned them "because the parcel is full".
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Takuan Daikon
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Join date: 22 Jun 2006
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10-06-2006 09:55
I'll be happy to test this when I am off of work, but the obvious question really is "Doesn't LL already test this? If not, why not?".
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
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10-06-2006 11:43
Thanks Takuan.
Update on parameters:
Player B needs to buy the land, but not the prims, from Player A, before attempting the test.
Then Player B needs to try to rez something complex, like a whole house - something that greatly exceeds the available prims on the parcel.
See the other thread for the results of my in-world test. It seems that rezzing just a few prims at a time is behaving as it should. But possibly attempting to rez something huge was the issue.
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JonVon Neumann
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Don't understand the problem???
10-06-2006 13:22
If avatar A sells land to avatar B, then B is now owner. If B then rezzes prims that exceed the allowance, the outcome is not well-defined. Possible outcomes of B attempting to rez prims over limit on land owned by B:
1. Would one expect no prims to be returned and B not be able to rez prims?
XOR 2. would one expect B to be able to rez prims and A's prims be returned?
XOR 3. would one expect the last prims rezzed to be returned?
Each of these outcomes seem valid. The question is which is implemented. The first outcome would seem to be the most consistent with present behavior of the Main Grid.
In the first case (where A owns the land and B attempts to rez prims over the limit), the expected outcome is that B would not be allowed to rez prims. The return of prims to A by B is not expected behavior.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
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10-06-2006 16:07
What *should* happen is that when the new parcel owner rezzes more prims than he has allocation for, he should firmly be told there are not enough prims available for that action.
He should then have the intentional option to choose items on his land to delete or return, to free up space. As much as it is a dumb thing to return the rental box on the house that you are renting to the sim owner, even that should be possible. But the new owner would have to intentionally select the item and choose to return it.
It should NEVER be true that the mere act of attempting to rez new prims should start deleting older prims without you telling it to do so.
Imagine a new landowner. He buys a small lot with a home on it, and has 40 prims free. He rezzes a single 42-prim bed, and his house is returned to the sim owner! Or even if he owns the house himself, rezzing the bed returns the HOUSE to his lost and found? Noooo.... Pre-existing prims are supposed to have priority.
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Ceera Murakami
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10-06-2006 18:51
Check the current feednack thread, linked in the first post.
The trigger is an attenpt to rez a boat that has 27 prims PLUS a 250-prim 'attachment'!
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Ralph Doctorow
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10-06-2006 19:35
From: Ceera Murakami Player B needs to buy the land, but not the prims, from Player A, before attempting the test.
Are you sure this is what you are objecting to? If player B buys the land (s)he owns it and can freely return all the existing prims no matter who owns them. If you are renting land by selling it to the renters you've got bigger problems than a few returned prims. |
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Ceera Murakami
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10-07-2006 07:18
From: Ralph Doctorow If you are renting land by selling it to the renters you've got bigger problems than a few returned prims. I intend to talk to the sim owner about that implementation, to be sure. He would be better served to not sell the parcel, but rather to have the renter join the property owner's group, and to set specific land use rights in the roles assigned to that renter. However, the key issue here remains that rezzing NEW content should NEVER, EVER force existing content to go away. The last time our renter lost his house, all he did was land his huge boat at the dock beside his bungalo, and step off the vehicle. Doing so caused the boat to attempt to rez a 250 prim static version of the sails and other parts that make up the 'attachment' portion of his vehicle. This sudden overload of his parcel's prim capacity, linked with a bug in the Grey Goo Fence defense code that Linden Lab recently implemented, wiped out his house and cleared his parcel of ALL objects! That is a serious glitch, regardless of any rental or ownership status. I have warned him that he can NOT safely use that boat anywhere near his home on our islands. It's like trying to land a 747 aircraft in your back yard! Linden Lab needs to FIX the grey goo fence coding so situations like this do NOT delete pre-existing content. The maker of the boat needs to clearly warn his clients just how huge the thing is, and how many prims it requires for safe use. Our renter had no clue that this boat used 277 real prims when rezzed or when disembarking.
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Dana Bergson
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10-07-2006 08:11
Hi Ceera, what you describe could explain some funny behaviour that was reported by our customers on OTHERLAND in the last days. This is part of the Gray Goo Defense Code? Hmmm... interesting. I am no sure though, that what you describe as "expected behavior" is really the behavior I would prefer, though. When someone owns land, his prims should have priority over prims of other residents IMHO. I warning that it is not possible to rez more prims on the parcel would be preferable, though. I am not sure how this would work in situations like the one you described, where the prims - whhich were attached? - are rezzed by a script. If the object rezzing the prims is not owned by the landowner, where would they appear? Maybe the situation is more complicated than it seems?  |
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Ceera Murakami
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10-07-2006 09:25
Had a long discussion with Data Linden. Apparently, the issue is how SL treats a vehicle when it is dropped on land and exceeds prim count. If I crash a large plane on someone else's property, and the plane exceeds the prim count for the land, then the plane gets auto-returned to my Lost and Found. That I would expect. But if I crash that same plane on MY OWN LAND, it assumes I want to keep that newly placed item, and starts deleting other stuff - like MY HOUSE! That is NOT acceptable, and I have bug reported it. Apparently priority is given to first deleting prims that belong to anyone else. Which might be all your roommate's posessions, or group-owned stuff. Then it starts deleting stuff that YOU own. THE VEHICLE IS THE LAST THING TO GO, even if it requires more prims than the whole parcel supports! This is an absolutely unacceptable assumption, and needs to be fixed. A vehicle that is dropped on ANY parcel that can't support its prim count should get returned. it should NOT cause other prims to get returned! Here's my conversation with Data Linden. I couldn't fit it all in the bug report. Incidentally, I checked and it was a 1024 M2 parcel, supporting 234 prims. 80 prims were in use for the house. The resident owned the land and the doors and windows, but not the house, or the rental box. The only thing left on his land was one door and a palm tree, and the 27-prim hull of the vehicle that he had just stepped off of. From: someone Ceera Murakami: He lands this boat, steps off it, and his parcel gets wiped.
Data Linden: Too many prims than his lands supports
Ceera Murakami: Yes. The boat is 27 prims, but when rezzed it self-rezzes 250 more. Does the same when you disembark.
Ceera Murakami: When you rez the 27 prim main vehicle, it in turn rezzes an additional 250 prim object. That 250 prim object gets replaced by an 'attachment' while you are piloting the boat. When you stand up, the attachment goes away >>
Ceera Murakami: > and the boat rezzes another 250 prim static object. That sudden appearance of a script-generated huge object is the source of the problem.
Ceera Murakami: The grey goo fence sees 250 prims being script generated, and starts to wipe them off the parcel. But the script fails, and not all of them appear. the fence keeps wiping, and wipes his parcel clean...
Ceera Murakami: This is, of course, a bug. The grey goo fence should not wipe existing content.
Data Linden: When he steps off his boat, the prims will be counted to his parcel prims, and it will go over the prims he uses on his land. The land will start to return objects until the amount of supported prims is reache
Data Linden: It's not a bug
Ceera Murakami: Wiping the house and the rest of the parcel IS a bug.
Ceera Murakami: It wipes his parcel dead empty.
Ceera Murakami: I believe the grey goo fence is detecting the script-generated appearance of 250 prins, and starts the return of objects, intending to return the excess.
Ceera Murakami: But the rez fails, so when the returns start, the only things to return are the pre-existing content.
Data Linden: It isn't the grey goo fence. It is the land. The land detects it is holding more prims than allowed and starts returning objects until the allowed amount is reached
Ceera Murakami: But it keeps wiping until the parcel is empty. zero prims.
Ceera Murakami: It's a 512 M2 parcel, with an 80 prim house on it. Why is the house getting wiped?
Data Linden: What is the amount of prims the land can hold ?
Ceera Murakami: 117
Ceera Murakami: I can double-check, but I am pretty sure it's just a 512 M2 parcel.
Data Linden: Because it assumes you want to keep the last rezzed object
Ceera Murakami: That makes no sense.
Ceera Murakami: If I have a parcel with 3 prims free, and I attempt to drag-copy or rez from inventory a 4 prim object, I get a polite message saying that I do not have enough prims available, and the rez fails.
Ceera Murakami: That is the accepted and expected behavior.
Ceera Murakami: But if a scripted object rezzes too many prims, it gets priority over my house?
Data Linden: But this is a dropped vehicle
Ceera Murakami: So how should that be any different from dropping an item on the land from my inventory?
Ceera Murakami: If I crash a plane on your land, and there are not enough prims, the plane gets returned to my lost and found, right?
Data Linden: Yes because you are not the owner of the land
Ceera Murakami: But if I crash a plane on land that I own, the plane stays, and everything else on my land gets returned?
Ceera Murakami: That is flat our incorrect behavior, data.
Ceera Murakami: The plane should get returned, not my house.
Data Linden: You can file a bug report on that please ?
Ceera Murakami: I would love to Should I copy the text of this conversation for it?
Data Linden: You can if you want
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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Bug Report on file
10-07-2006 10:17
Your bug report regarding Bug: E:421 P:1 O:M V1.12.1.13 (Nohona Isle)[Missing Content] "Rezzing or disembarking from vehicle wipes parcel content" has been received, and assigned an ID of [rt.lindenlab.com #430476].
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lol Wind
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uh oh
10-07-2006 16:44
i think im on the 18+ not ten @_@ plz help seriously
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grumble Loudon
A Little bit a lion
Join date: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 612
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10-07-2006 20:49
I did some testing a few versions ago on the main grid.
Here is the procedure I used
.1. Section off a 16m Sq parcel deeded to a group
.2. With neither person set to group Rez Some prims
.3. Have the second person rez some prims on an ajacient parcel.
.4. Slide the second set on to the small parcel.
Expected results: The new prims would be returned.
Earlier results: The old prims were returned. Early 1.10
Current results: The new prims are returned.
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Dana Bergson
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Posts: 561
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10-07-2006 22:01
From: Ceera Murakami If I crash a large plane on someone else's property, and the plane exceeds the prim count for the land, then the plane gets auto-returned to my Lost and Found. That I would expect.
But if I crash that same plane on MY OWN LAND, it assumes I want to keep that newly placed item, and starts deleting other stuff - like MY HOUSE! That is NOT acceptable, and I have bug reported it.
Apparently priority is given to first deleting prims that belong to anyone else. Which might be all your roommate's posessions, or group-owned stuff. Then it starts deleting stuff that YOU own. THE VEHICLE IS THE LAST THING TO GO, even if it requires more prims than the whole parcel supports! As Second Life can not read my mind and can not easily recognize the prims as belonging to "a crashed vehicle" or "the house I build with my own hands" I have to say that this behavior seems to make sense to me. The idea is obviously that on my land my prims always should have priority. And I don't see any other rule that makes more sense to me - without making SL intelligent enough so it can "see" that the new prims are a crashed vehicle (not sure how that might work). Again: the best solution, IMHO, would be if the parcel would not allow the rezzing of additional prims that exceed the prim allocation. Neither manually nor scripted. |
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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10-08-2006 07:03
Dana, in virtually all other cases, an attempt to place too many prims on a parcel tells you the parcel is full, and disallows the attempt. Then you, as land owner, can decide what stays and what you want to return.
You are right - SL certainly can NOT read the land owner's mind, and therefore to delete content without warning, other than what was just added and exceesd prim count, is absolutely insane.
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Haravikk Mistral
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10-08-2006 09:48
I agree on this, the newest item should always be returned. Even if just on the merit that you actually know what it is! If you are rezzing something and it fails, you know what failed and why. If it rezzes anyway and random stuff disappears, you don't know until you notice it's missing, and with many things you might not even remember what it was!
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JonVon Neumann
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Join date: 27 Jul 2006
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Agree with LIFO return
10-09-2006 13:13
I agree that reasonable behavior would be the last object or objects rezzed (last in) should be the first object or objects returned (first out). Not only are the ones that are known, they are the most likely to be the ones involved in an accident or an attack. Therefore, returning the most recent objects would make sense. I am not familiar with all of the data attached to objects, but there should be a way to identify the most recent objects, such as top of the stack, end of the list, or largest key value (assuming these are assigned in order rezzed), if no rezzed timestamp is kept. Users do keep life interesting. |
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Ralph Doctorow
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10-09-2006 13:50
Agreed, LIFO return seems like the only reasonable scheme.
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Argent Stonecutter
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10-10-2006 11:08
In all cases the objects responsible for bringing the parcel over the limit should be returned. You should never have to guess what might have been returned when something weird happens.
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Ceera Murakami
Texture Artist / Builder
Join date: 9 Sep 2005
Posts: 7,750
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10-10-2006 14:27
One thing just occurred to me. This particular glitch might also happen if you drop a prim-heavy avatar attachment. Not rez it from inventory, but attach it to your avatar, and then right click the attachment and select 'drop'.
Imagine accidentally clicking near the edge of the screen on an invisible part of a high-prim, multi-position tail. The pie menu thinks you wanted to select 'drop'. It drops the tail to the ground, and your house disappears, without warning! I have one tail that is a triple Kitsune tail with three position options, and weighs in at about 75 prims. (Yeah, I know - *ouch*.) I'll bet if I drop that tail on a first-land sized lot that's nearly full, and if I own the lot, I'd send almost everything else back!
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Ceera Murakami
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Test Results
10-10-2006 19:45
Just tested it in the Beta grid, on the .7 build that goes live tomorrow. Milo deeded a parcel to one of my groups, and I stuck a house on it. He also helped me to uptade my inventory in Beta, so I had the huge ship available to test. Milo also left 4 chairs on the property, that he retained ownership of.
Dropping a tail was 'safe', and did not cause any prims, including milo's chair, to vanish. I just got a message that the tail could not be dropped there, because there were not enough prims free.
As I said, I had Milo Linden leave a chair on the property. It stayed there in all tests, EXCEPT one.
If I rezzed the full ship elsewhere, boarded it, and moved the ship onto the parcel before stepping off the ship, then it wiped any prims that I did not own, while attempting to 'make room' for a self-rezzing 250-prim piece that would fail anyway! I got NO indication that it was wiping anyone else's prims. The chair just silently vanished.
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Ceera Murakami
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10-10-2006 20:14
However, I had someone else buy the house, and repeated the experiment with the boat, and the house did *not* vanish...
Perhaps it only happens if I personally *own* the land? In these tests, the land was deeded to one of the groups that I own, because land transfer was not enabled on the beta grid when we started testing.
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