Would any of attend...

I'd post this in the events section if I had made the decision to do this. But since it's about Machinima and some sort of feedback is required, this is the best place I guess.

So.. I've had some free time as of late and been watching some of your films. Please no one take anything I have to say as a personal insult, as I understand most of you are amateurs. There is nothing wrong with that at all. But I have noticed that many of you might benifit from learning about editing.

Editing isn't about just assembling shots, pressing some buttons, and adding disolves. It's about telling a story, psychology, and pacing. Film in any form has a language that you have to learn how to read.

I am a trained working editor in real life. I edit commercials and tv for pay and indie films for enjoyment. Which doesn't really say all that much given the state of the industry here, but I do know a thing or two.

Since I have some free time, and at least a bit of knowledge on this subject I was thinking of holding some free classes in world. I feel that if I just pick a day/time and post an event it will get lost in the shuffle. Not to mention I don't even know if any of you want to pick my brain at all, which would make putting it together a big waste of my time.

This would mainly be classes on editing theory, not really the technical aspect since many of you use different programs.

If you get nothing else out of reading all this junk, here's a treat. The industry standard for editing programs is Avid. You can even get a version of it for free... Look see:Avid Free DV

Weekends are usually the most available since I'm in the UK. So.. opinions? Comments? Ect.

Nice offer, I would like to attend.

At the end of your post you mention the free version of Avid DV. I looked at this when evaluating what editing application to use. The main drawback was the free version only used QuickTime as source and output. I am a huge fan of QuickTime, but the Fraps software we use for capturing the Machinima, outputs as AVI, with a proprietary codec that QuickTime cannot read. It just seemed like a lot of hoops to jump through, to get a tool to convert the AVI to QuickTime and then haul it into Avid DV.

Any suggestions on how to jump though these hoops free/cheap?

Great to hear that!

Since I haven't used fraps before, as my laptop barely handles SL, I couldn't tell you but I'll see what I can find. Saddly if quicktime could read it a simple conversion through quicktime player would work. One thing you might also want to look at is virtual dub, which is free and seems to convert anything I've ever needed.

There is also Snapz Pro that will capture directly into quicktime. It's not free and only for a Mac.

*edit* I did a search on the avid forums and everyone there agrees to use virtual dub and convert it with a quicktime codec. They also suggested looking at this free program also squared5 which will convert anything into a format that avid will use.

As a big fan of machinima, and as someone underwhelmed by the quality of machinima made in SL (compared to Halo or Half-Life), I would hope some folks would take Luth up on this. She knows what she's doing, and her in-world work, especially anims, speaks for itself.

I know from my own teaching that people resist theory; they think it is academic or too clever by a half. To that I would only say that the problem with ignorance is not what you don't know (cuz that you can look up); it's what you don't know that you don't know. Give the class a chance, and if it doesn't work for you, leave and don't come back!

As someone who dabbles in machinima for fun (but mainly music videos, so the storytelling aspect tends to be a bit less important, if not absent, as you still want to represent the event), I'd be interested in attending a class on editing if I can.

Tools I use: FRAPS for the capture, Adobe Premiere 1.5 for the editing and good old windows movie maker for the final compression to WMV as I always seem to end up with 400 gigs files in Premiere.

Thanks for the offer.

Wendel

I am going to have to disagree with you on the importance of storytelling in music videos. In terms of editing, storytelling is a broad use of the term. And in all fact, an outdated one.

In every piece of video or film you want the audience to feel or think something important. It is the same thing with any piece of artwork correct? While some finished products might not have the basic beginning/middle/end of a linear story you are still expressing an idea of sorts.

In the aspect of music videos in paticular, you are pushing the "feel" of the music. There are various ways in which you can change the way you are editing to push this feel even further. The pacing of the shots, the reasons why this one shot goes in this one part of the music, use of transitions, and the sequence of shots.

In any production, every single element is created for a specific reason. From the contents of the character's car to the exact level and type of footstep. It is partly to give depth to the piece but mostly to push the auidence to feel/think something. In most cases, editing is the least conciously noticable. That is why it is named the seamless art. But if something isn't working, most people will notice even if they can't tell you what it is.

All these ideas might seem too heavy or pointless. But it's not as daunting as it seems. All it is learning to look at moving images in a different way. Think of it sort of like learning to read a book, but its pictures instead and a lot less of a learning curve. When you read, you don't conciously think about every word or letter your brain just does it. When I edit, I don't think about these things. It just sits there in the back of my mind.

"I love editing. I think I like it more than any other phase of filmmaking. If I wanted to be frivolous, I might say that everything that precedes editing is merely a way of producing film to edit." Stanley Kubrick

I might have sounded more dismissive about storytelling than I intended because I very much agree with what you wrote. I've just spent the past 8 hours or so editing a video on the Black Eyed Peas and what clip goes where, where to use fast and slow cuts and how to make the images and the music match together are very much on my mind at all times.

I'm still very much trying to learn how to bring out emotions though. and all I do is done based on what I think is right. I have no professional experience to rely on. But I enjoy the process.

That's why I said I would be interested in attending your class.

I think that a constructive critique of posted videos might be interesting too if agreed upon by the creator. You could take a video as an example and explain what was done right and what wasn't. Not sure my work is up to the level of being critiqued just yet though.

Wendel

Pick a time and post it. I am pretty flexible.

Bubucuh Fairchild used some streaming audio for some of the Alt-Zoom Machinima classes. That worked pretty good, though there was a 45 second lag between our typing and his audio.

Oh, please post any reading list or videos/movies to be familiar with, and be ready to discuss. Maybe a vocabulary list, so we all have the same/correct terms to talk editing.

I would also be interested in submitting a video for critique.

Hey, sounds like I'm getting excited.

http://www.ambrosiasw.com/utilities/snapzprox/

I've talked to a number of Mac people and didn't have any idea what to suggest, good to know. Have you used this to capture SL to video?

Appologies for the delay in answering the questions...

Critiques: Anyone who is interested in a private or public critique please contact me. I will not force anyone to have one, but I do highly recomend you opt for the public one. That way everyone can learn from it. Critiques aren't as bad as you'd might think. Personally, I don't think there is enough constructive critisim in SL. I understand it's a difficult thing to take, but that really is mostly in your mind. Also, you are never too inexperienced to benifit from it. It's actually better to start getting them early so you don't fall into bad habits.

The one thing you must always remember is that if you take 100 editors and give them the same footage, you will have 100 different films. Some might be better then others, but it's really all up to interpertation. There are rules for editing, but all rules are meant to be broken. The only thing I can really do to help is if parts are working or not and why it is not.

Reading list/movies to be familiar with: Not for the first class. Since there is so much information, I cannot possibly cram 5 years of film school plus 5 years of proffessional working knowledge into one afternoon. I will start out with the basics and work my way up based on interpertation of how people are "getting" it. There will be no homework, but instead exercises that you can choose to do which will help you understand what I had already gone over. I will also be making a notecard for each class for anyone who cannot make it, tho being involved in the discussion will help you learn far better.

The classes will begin either this weekend or next. A couple of updates ago, SL returned 1/2 of my build and made my laptop unable to run SL without constant lockups. I have a new computer now and starting to rebuild my cafe where the classes will be held. I'll update here by wed.

Classes will begin on Sunday 10, September at 3pm SLT.

Sorry for the delay but I've come done with a nasty cold.

I might be away in Belgium on that week-end but will attend if that gets cancelled. Please post a reminder closer to the date.

As for video critiques, I'm putting myselfin the hot seat. I just posted a video here.

Feel free to critique it. *quivers in his boots*

Wendel

Sadly I just noticed this thread so I'm going to miss the first class. I would love to attend your classes as I could use all the help I can get. If there is any way you can post a transcript somewhere of your first class that would be great or if you plan to hold the class again I'm definitely interested!.

Seems like there are a few that are really interested that can't make sundays or at least this coming sunday. Since Im trying to accomidate as many as I can, I'm going to hold the same class the following Saturday. I hope this helps.

The schedule for now will be:
Sunday 10 September 3pm SLT - Basic Editing 1
Saturday 16 September 3pm SLT - Basic Editing 1
Sunday 17 September 3pm SLT - Basic Editing 2

I will also have notecards available for if you miss one or would like to have notes.

Videos for critique:

Start
http://alt-zoom.com/movies/febtake5/Start_release04.mov

Stylehive Fashion Expo 2006
http://alt-zoom.com/movies/martake5/v4_FashionExpo2006_320x240.mov

The first is a "story", the second is the recording of an event. Feedback on either or both is good. With years experience with art critiques, I am open to whatever you have to say.

Hi Moebius,
First I have to say that I liked "Start" a lot and you are on my list of people I'd like to meet one day.
So critiques...
Start: I think the avatars and sets are fantastic. There are lots of nicely composed shots. The soundtrack is great. The story of the robots after the war is, I think, the one weak point. Mostly I'm just left with lots of questions - why did the robot factory owner refuse to build the electron robot? In a world of robots that would have been a huge advantage. I'd love to have seen that discussed or explored a little. Also how and why did they let them build that huge electron robot? It must have taken some time to build. Couldn't the factory owner robot have acted sooner?

Fashion Expo: Lots of nice shots and good editing. For the people who attended, where part of the show or are interested in the fashion I would think this is great video. Personally, it gets a little repetative for me and I would probably enjoy it more if it was about half as long. But that's just me and I don't think I'm exactly the audience this was intended for.

I'd also like to say that you're brave to put your work out there for criticism. It would be cool if we used this forum for that more often while it's still around.

I agree! As long as the person submitting the video and the person writing the critique remember that the critique is about the work, not the creator, I think there is a lot to learn from it.

I used to belong to a Sci-Fi writing Compuserve forum where critiques by fellow writers gave you a lot of food for thought.

This would definitely be one great use of this forum...

Wendel

Thanks, we like it too. The video was a labor of love (four months of activity). This is my second video and I have much to learn about this storytelling medium.

Torley's music is excellent.

I think the "story" issue is the story telling technique, balanced against the length of the video. So much detail in such a short time, the audience doesn't pick it up on first watch. We start off pretty fast and keep hitting the audience with a barrage of wild stuff.

As we got into production, we studied Fritz Lang's "Metropolis", both for inspiration and film techniques.

I'd be interested in knowing how you would suggest "fixing" this kind of story flaw. Maybe some more title cards, slow down the pacing, or ...



I agree, there is a lot to explore there. We may revisit the setting again in a future film project (perhaps the steam robot lunar mission?).

To answer your first question, watch the video again (or read this from the script). It goes by pretty fast and the visuals can distract from the message.

----Script Excerpt----

DESIGNER (continues)
I have another design for a power plant which
would drive our robots using a form of man-made
lightning called electrons, instead of steam.

CEO (interrupting)
Read the news man.

War is coming.

We are not going to stop production on the
Steam Soldiers just to develop some new
process.

We must deliver the Steam Soldiers
before we are attacked.

----End Script Excerpt----

So, the impression is that, given time, the factory owner would build electron robots, but the impending war and his business contract won't allow it now, so he needs the inventor to focus on the job at hand.



The building of the electron robot didn't interfere with his "business", until more of his factory workers (green robots) left to work on the "heretic's" project. Then the robot project became a conflict issue. Yes, I suppose he could have acted earlier, but then we loose some drama.



Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm not part of the audience either. I was hired to make this video as a record of the event. Each of the participants' outfits were to be highlighted and the length was to be around 5 minutes. I recorded footage during the 2.5 hour show. This was an exercise in shooting a live event and editing to music (and it was a paying gig, woohoo). All told, an 11 hour project.

Oh, and Torley's music is used again.

http://yislash.dreamhosters.com/take5/agent-smith-beta.mov

This is the machinima I submitted for the July Take5 festival. There are a couple of areas that I want to re-do, and would like to see if the feedback matches what I have in mind.

Looking forward to Luth's classes as well!

PowerMac G5 dual 2.0 Ghz tower
SnapzPro
Final Cut Express

Moebius was the main driver behind everything built, with help on turning the robot model into an avatar from Slade Onizuka, and someone else (I am not sure who) helped with one of the sets... I think the dressing on the inside of the corner shop?



Are you talking about camera? lighting? or editing?

I don't see your specific impression of the editing, overall, listed here.

So, I will specifically ask: editing wise, what did you think worked, and aside from the two edits I am least happy with, what could have been better?



Thanks! Torley composed and performed it, and the task of sifting through 230 MP3s of Torley Goodness to find the tracks that fit START was not easy. The sequencing, and choosing the specific passages to "fit" the scenes was even harder.

I am glad you liked it. I personally doubt that it comes through informationally on first watch, but the score pieces were chosen to tell the story in parallel with the visuals.

The score is primarily piano pieces... in the scenes where the Blue Robot is explaining his vision of the future, there are tiny hints of synth pieces, as audio echoes of the future that is being described.

As the Green CEObot decides its time to act, the soundtrack switches from piano to organ, as an intermediate, and then, as the Electron Robot wakes up, the final piece we hear is almsot completely synthetic, hopefully propelling the audience into the future that the Electron Robot represents.

Or, I could have just picked pieces I thought sounded cool and stuck them whereever and made up some stuff that sounded like it was all intentional art



Understandable, given the original intent to hit a five-minute mark and my complete new-ness to the whole screenwriting process (i.e. that was my second screenplay ever).

Conventional Three Act Drama format means that each act would get less than 2 pages.
Thats less than two minutes each to introduce the players, develop the conflict, and resolve it. We were always afraid that we had cut too much story corner. That was why we ultimately added the silent-movie style storyboards.

I would have loved to explore a more modern multi-goal/nine-act drama format for START, but that would have left just over half a page per act. Ouch!

We were shooting for an ambitious goal... tell a complete dramatic story set in a completely alternate world, in a five-minute format. It's all proof-of-concept stuff, and as a learning experience, it was one of the most educational projects I have ever taken on.



I hope so
Hopefully enough questions to make it worth going back to that world and writing more.



He was relentlessly, slavishly following the presumed orders of his master.

Initially we see a human CEO explaining why electron robots were not going to happen, with the green robot looking on. I was trying to establish that the green robot was taking his master's words as orders/gospel at that point. I also tried to re-iterate that with the scene where the green robot, as the new CEO, essentially performs the same action as the human CEO, pounding the desk and saying no when the blue robot brings the finished plans.



Maybe, maybe not. Not all new technology is seen as beneficial.
For example, AT&T famously told the inventors of the Internet that it would never work, because it was fundamentally different than what AT&T built. The Internet was packet switched, rather than circuit-switched, and the AT&T engineers just couldn't make the leap.



As Moebius notes later in this thread, that was (unsucessfully?) established at the beginning.




Editorially, we tried to show the time as a compressed sequence of cuts between the work crews building the robot, the CEO watching the thing being built, and the factory workers disappearing from the factory floor.



Yes, but, IMO, it would not have made sense to act without motivation (his factory workers leaving) and a true indication of the "threat" other than just some streecorner preaching.

Seeing the full-scale robot project actually achieving its goals, rather than just talking on the corner about it, provides the rest of the impetus to act.

Or I could just be making excuses for poor storytelling

Of course, all of your questions answer *my* big question about START:
Did I convey the story information successfully?
The answer is obviously no, which makes the storytelling side of START a failure, essentially.

But, for me, its a glorious failure. Despite the many flaws I see when I watch it, I am immensely proud of having been part of it, especially from the story, sound, and editing aspects which I contributed. My acting was terrible, but thats another story for another day.

Hi all. Thanks for posting projects for critiques. I started writing some of them out based on first impressions, but I think that if I wait until after the first class you will "get" what I'm talking about a bit more. So look for them later in the week.

Just a reminder that the edit classes start today at 3pm SLT. I was asked to hold them at the alt-zoom theater, but I haven't heard back from them yet. I was going to post an event, but since it is 4 hours away from now, I don't know if it'll get placed. Appologies for that. Please just IM me for a tp

Cheers.
Luth

Thanks Luth. The first class was very good. I got a lot of food for thought.

BTW - Did you get a copy of the transcript? If not, I can share it.

Just come across this thread, and I'd really liked to have been involved. My RL job is in a High School as a performing arts tech and I have to film loads of shows, then edit really bad footage filmed by students who can't take simple direction, so any help on that score would be greatly appreciated. BTW Luth, I'm in the UK too so if you or anyone wants to hook up off world to waste a few evenings away on skype or whatever, IM me and we can sort something out.

Bah. Illness and work have taken me over! I havn't had the time to finish writing my critiques yet, but I haven't forgotton!

The classes are still going, but I have moved them to my land in order to be able to post events. I also had to give up the Saturday class as my husband is having more gigs that night. So just in case any of you missed the other ones, I'm restarting them again next Friday.

The events have been posted!
Sunday 1 Oct 3pm SLT - Edit class 3
Friday 6 Oct 6pm SLT - Edit class 1 (luckily this is a repeat for me as it will be 2am my time)

Cheers

Oh no. Did I miss this? Are you still having classes?