18 months of work down the toilet
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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10-25-2005 04:04
So 1.7 is released, huge improvements in sim performance. The fish look better than ever. YAYY So what am I complaining about? Object to Object inventry transfer is now limited to only work on land you own. So the fish can no longer breed. All my land, even my islands, are set to group to give full access to other group members, so I don't technically even 'own' my private sim land  B*ST*RDS is all I have to say. The whole point of the fish experiment is to make them autonomous, self sustaining, self replicating with their own ecosystem of food and predators. But what is the point now? They won't even work on my own private sims... 18 months of work wasted. Thanks Lindens.
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor
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Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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10-25-2005 04:12
oh.
I didnt see that one documented. That will break some of my stuff too. And duffs up something kewl I was working on.
Oh well, saves me having to finish it, I guess.
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Loki Pico
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2003
Posts: 1,938
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10-25-2005 04:20
Did you see this thread ? Kelly Linden explains why and asks for a direct email for solutions. |
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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10-25-2005 04:33
From: Loki Pico Did you see this thread ? Kelly Linden explains why and asks for a direct email for solutions. Ah. So they nerfed my (well, not really mine, but I built the content) entire business and my vendors that create custom content on the fly because someone else brought down the grid. Well thats ok then! Not to mention my Xyobject!  |
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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10-25-2005 04:45
Ironically, Surina had installed her fish on my land five minutes before the closedown, much to my delight, and of course, when sl came back up, they were no more.
The Lindens were well aware of Surina's experiments and all the other AI work that has been going on in second life. Was it so much to ask that they speak to these people first, and try to work out some kind of compromise, before acting like a bull in a china shop?
It seems to me that they have disabled a feature that was very important. While I appreciate that the security of the grid is important too, I have to say that had they acted proactively and removed this racist griefer when he was going round offending, upsetting and generally griefing other people, the attack would not have happened.
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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10-25-2005 04:47
Vendors are nerfed as well? How do vendors use O2O? Don't then just give (sell) objects to avs?
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor
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Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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10-25-2005 04:50
It's not just AI and stuff either, Selador. Another fine example of world famous and now non working objects is Francis Chung's excellent Flamebringer. Which now can't flame.
This hasty botch of a fix has nerfed plenty of stuff. It's just a matter of time before we start finding out how much.
And it won't be LL that get furious IM's from outraged customers who's goods no longer work.
*le sigh*
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Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
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10-25-2005 04:51
From: Surina Skallagrimson Vendors are nerfed as well? How do vendors use O2O? Don't then just give (sell) objects to avs? Not when your vendor builds custom content based upon user choices in real time before their eyes  Or did... |
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Sapphire Bombay
Avatar
Join date: 8 Oct 2003
Posts: 341
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10-25-2005 04:52
I agree with Surina on this one. You can't just shoot down functionality offhand like that. That type of thing needs to be thought through and discussed to find out the possible impact. It doesn't matter how many LSL functions you handicap, griefers will always find a way. Gimping functions isn't the answer to any future such attacks.
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Avatar: A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity.
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nations
Join date: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 941
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I have the answer
10-25-2005 04:56
Surely all they have to do is dissable the login server and the griefers won't be able to login to bring down the grid...
*runs off to email Kelly*
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Surina Skallagrimson
Queen of Amazon Nation
Rizal Sports Mentor
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Philip Linden: "we are not in the game business."
Adam Savage: "I reject your reality and substitue my own."
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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10-25-2005 05:30
If this is in fact a response to the 'griefball incident' it is both pathetic and inappropriate in as much as, as usual, SL residents are being penalised while the perpetrators walk away.
WHEN will LL learn that the way to stop this sort of thing is to take firm positive action against troublemakers?
And IF they must let things go as far as they have they MUST make an awful example of the perpetrators with maximum publicity.
'If you do bad stuff THIS happens' rather than 'If you do bad stuff we slap your wrist' might just make trouble makers think twice and maybe go somewhere else. I know it's not in line with hand wringing liberal attitudes, but it works.
And I'm pretty sure that people who have spent precious time developing stuff would rather see LL act responsibly and protect legitimate users interests rather than act as they presently are.
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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10-25-2005 06:00
Actually, the problem is the global attack.
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Doc Nielsen
Fallen...
Join date: 13 Apr 2005
Posts: 1,059
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10-25-2005 06:48
From: blaze Spinnaker Actually, the problem is the global attack. Duhhh?
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All very well for people to have a sig that exhorts you to 'be the change' - I wonder if it's ever occurred to them that they might be something that needs changing...?
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Fafnir Fauna
Downy Cat
Join date: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 34
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10-25-2005 07:43
I just logged on a moment ago to find out I could no longer send a notecard with instructions for a remote object to follow.
I'm rather upset with this because LL has given us no other options for remote object to object communication other than email; which is slow as hell, and its recieve/sending order is unreliable. :\
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Driftwood Nomad
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2003
Posts: 451
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10-25-2005 08:23
Our dog training/upgrading is also now broken. I really hope LL fixes this issue. Maybe if enough people speak up?
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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10-25-2005 08:30
From: blaze Spinnaker Actually, the problem is the global attack. WHAT? Surina is planning to use her fish to launch a global attack!??!  (j/k) One question. Was all of this broken as a result of the 1.7 patch... OR, was all this broken IN RESPONSE TO a completely seperate "attack" (Sunday evening). Yes, it's a bad thing, it sucks, and I think they should have dealt with it differently... BUT, seeing how much this "breaks" I don't think it will stay broken for long. Don't blame my new shiny. I likey new shiny. |
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blaze Spinnaker
1/2 Serious
Join date: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 5,898
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10-25-2005 10:26
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Robin Linden
Linden Lifer
Join date: 25 Nov 2002
Posts: 1,224
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10-25-2005 10:27
We'll work on a way to allow your scripts to work successfully without creating the loophole that created the opportunity to shut down the grid.
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Aliasi Stonebender
Return of Catbread
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,858
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10-25-2005 11:54
Chill, folks.
I think this is more a bandaid until something proper is figured. Myself, I'd be happy if it was instead limited to land you own or land owned by a group that the object is set to, if that's possible.
I an here assuming that an object set to Group A that rezzes an object will also rez that object set to Group A. (If it doesn't, make it so.)
In that way the fish and similar things would work fine on group-owned land; just set the fish to group. (Additionally, it would be less discriminatory to those who do not own land, just so long as you are in a group that owns land.)
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Red Mary says, softly, “How a man grows aggressive when his enemy displays propriety. He thinks: I will use this good behavior to enforce my advantage over her. Is it any wonder people hold good behavior in such disregard?”
Anything Surplus Home to the "Nuke the Crap Out of..." series of games and other stuff
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DoctorMike Soothsayer
He's not a real doctor.
Join date: 3 Oct 2005
Posts: 113
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don't change reality, fine the perp
10-25-2005 12:43
Well, as one of quite a few non-land owners, I am now unable to experiment with fish like AL experiments. Why not fine the perps? LL has their credit card details.
I would be happy to agree to a change in TOS that defines loss of service and a fine/charge imposed if my actions cause loss of service. when it costs real money, they may not take the risk.
doc
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Performance Artist and educator
"Thinking outside the Prim"
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Merwan Marker
Booring...
Join date: 28 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,706
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10-25-2005 12:46
From: DoctorMike Soothsayer Well, as one of quite a few non-land owners, I am now unable to experiment with fish like AL experiments. Why not fine the perps? LL has their credit card details.
I would be happy to agree to a change in TOS that defines loss of service and a fine/charge imposed if my actions cause loss of service. when it costs real money, they may not take the risk.
doc Cause there are US banking laws and consumer protection laws that won't allow a company to "...fine..." a paying customer. Such is the Tao of CC! 
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Don't Worry, Be Happy - Meher Baba
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Malachi Petunia
Gentle Miscreant
Join date: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 3,414
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10-25-2005 13:12
From: Robin Linden We'll work on a way to allow your scripts to work successfully without creating the loophole that created the opportunity to shut down the grid. With all possible deferrence, that possible exploit was known forever and no one took advantage of it because 99.99% of the players aren't that viciously destuctive (nor as vindictive, as LL likely botched the punishment of the perpetrator's last offence). There are plenty of people with the motive and opportunity to strike against LL in such a fashion in ways you haven't even thought of, but they don't. I'm sure it was an unpleasant mess to have to clean up on a Sunday night. I don't envy you that. Notice how it took one bozo to force your hand into making an unwarranted knee jerk reaction which borked much of the commerce and function you claim to value so highly. This is as reactionary and as useless as oh... say forming a DHS to inconvenience the hell out of billions of travellers in order to protect against one stupid move by a few people for which there has been no prevention obtained to date because no one wants to do something as desctructive as that. I've made concrete suggestions as to how to mitigate the Griefball incident but you'll have to find them. Hint: search for recent posts under my avatar name. The part that I like best is that I'm exposing myself to sanctions for saying you've really fumbled on this one, badly. addendum: put in Hotline to Linden which has already been acknowledged by Kelly Linden. |
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Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
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10-25-2005 13:40
I have trouble understanding why this was added now; the feature was added to 1.7.51 on the oct-21 but the attack was oct-23. It screams two things, either an opertunistic attack based on the our griefer reading the change log; or more incidious LL did the attack them selves. Course it could be a quinky dink  Here is the email i sent kelly an hour and a half ago From: someone A couple solutions: 1. Most products don't use O2OOT (Object2Object Object Transfers) other then when one of the owners of the receiving or giving object is in the sim. So a good restriction would be to do something like this... GiveInventory(key destination, string asset)
{
//gSource key of object giving item
//gOwner key of the owner of the source
key destOwner = llGetOwner(destination);
if(destOwner == destination || agentInSim(gOwner) || agentInSim(destOwner) || isGroup(gOwner) || llGetInventoryType(asset) != INVENTORY_OBJECT || onOwnerGroupLand(gSource))
{//onOwnerGroupLand returns true if it's over the owners land or over land set to the same group, or if it is over the group owned land
//send asset
if(isGroup(gOwner) && !onOwnerGroupLand(gSource) && llGetInventoryType(asset) == INVENTORY_OBJECT)
llSetEnergy(llGetEnergy()*0.5);
}
} This would keep llGiveInventory functional for most products while keeping the grid mostly protected from rapid infections. It enables partial support for groups, which would result in dramatic reductions in energy on the object if the object is not over group land. 2. A sim could keep a list of new objects, physical objects and object inventory transfers in the sim categorized by owner in the last 10 minute. Then when a sim is heavily lagged it sends this list off to the space server to warn other sims of problem users, a warning would be time stamped and valid for 60 min. If a sim is experiencing heavy lag and it's list has common elements with that in the warning it can A) warn the user B) delete the objects causing the lag. I'm guessing here but I'm betting the space server also handles the world map and llRequestSimulatorData, considering the recent crash and inaccuracies returned by llRequestSimulatorData; it's probably time to invest some Dev time there anyway.
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Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly
Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey
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Logan Bauer
Inept Adept
Join date: 13 Jun 2004
Posts: 2,237
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10-25-2005 14:37
From: Merwan Marker Cause there are US banking laws and consumer protection laws that won't allow a company to "...fine..." a paying customer. Such is the Tao of CC! That's why it should be stuck in the TOS, along with everything else in there, basically saying that you're liable for any damage you cause, up to including taking financial responsibility for any denial-of-service or outtages that you cause. Things like this happen because there is no punishment, no negative reinforcement. Ban someone's griefer alt that they got for free, so they go get another? Barely a slap on the wrist. I'm not sure of the legality or if there are still consumer protection laws that would nullify this, tho?  From: Strife Onizuka I have trouble understanding why this was added now; the feature was added to 1.7.51 on the oct-21 but the attack was oct-23. It screams two things, either an opertunistic attack based on the our griefer reading the change log; or more incidious LL did the attack them selves. Course it could be a quinky dink Wow, that really does thicken the plot. I don't even know what to think with that, I can't see any cause for LL to do it, I mean it'll just force customer service issues and eventually force them to fix the problem... But I don't see what exposing the problem would do for LL, except maybe push it out the door quicker? |
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Kelly Linden
Linden Developer
Join date: 29 Mar 2004
Posts: 896
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10-25-2005 18:37
Actually you are incorrect Strife about your time lines. This limitation did not get added until Sunday night. I'm not sure where you are gettng this information, my guess is on the preview release notes it was crammed in an earlier section by mistake. I love conspiracies as much as the next guy, but it just didn't happen this time.
Allowing this to work when the group of the object matches the group of the land is high on my list of tweaks to this. I really am sorry that people's content was broken even temporarily.
The argument that 'well it hasn't happened before, why the rush' has one serious flaw from my perspective: it is very easy for me to imagine that code as effective as this at taking down the entire SL service could spread very fast through 3rd party sites and services over which we have no control. Yes it is very upsetting to the people whose content is currently broken and we are working on fixing that, but keeping the service up and running for everyone while we work this out is extremely important.
As mentioned elsewhere I welcome any and all feedback either in hotline or direct via email at [email]kelly@lindenlab.com[/email]. I can't gaurantee I will find every forum post in general or the group forums about it so those are probably the best two methods.
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- Kelly Linden
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