Comments on Crash Two

A topic for comments/criticisms/ questions about this week's Notes entries, which will mostly be devoted to Derek Jones' twin tower experiement in Olive, and its relation to 9/11.

I had some strong hesitations about writing this, especially given my own feelings about the terror attacks-- then again, it was something that happened in SL, and it was specifically brought to my attention by a relative of a 9/11 victim, and so it seemed part of my job to cover it. And in a larger sense, I do think this is a sign of things to come, in much the same way as the Jessie Wall story.

Anyway, let's talk about it here. Reactions, pro or con or mixed?

really tasteless... it's just sad that Derek's ongoing game of "fall down go boom crash the sandbox and annoy everyone around Olive with the constant noise and trash" has suddenly gained "significance". it's just a noisy monkey trying to get attention and it makes me sick that anyone would associate it with such a tragedy.

It was interesting that some innocent crashing tower fun would turn into a 9/11 type reenactment(without the planes). I know it hurt a lot of people on 9/11 physically and mentally and that my experimenting which started with stacking cylinders at Taylor's contest would eventually turn into a disturbing and controversial twin tower collapse in 2 days.

And no, I wasn't trying to annoy anyone or gain attention. THe people that tagged along will tell you that I made many improvements to try to make sure it didn't annoy people but the problem was that a lot of first impressions was to call a linden instead of asking me to stop or take measures to prevent annoyance in neighboring sims.

Hamlet, if you are looking for significance in your chaos and destruction, please stick to all the chaos and destruction which has been happening this week in SL. You don't need to remind us of that terrible event, which was a psychic shock felt around the world, the effects of which will be with us for a long time to come.

I think it's unfortunate that in a place where no physical harm can come to us, we still find ways to hurt each other. Derek's collapsing towers were nothing but an annoyance before I read this article, but now I can't help but to associate it with that day. Maybe this was Derek's personal catharsis acting itself out. I would prefer to just think of him as an annoying monkey.

Uh...

Anyone who can look at those two structures in your picture and not KNOW that that look like the WTC must surely have just emerged from a lifelong coma of some sort. I frankly get a bit ill when presented with individuals who claim to be adults when it is convenient for them, but also claim blissful ignorance of the real world when it suits their purposes.

If we don't allow children to sign up for SL then we shouldn't allow adults who are indistinguishable from children in their actions to continue using it. I say this without knowing who was involved in the incident. I think If I had been invited to participate I would have surely made some remark about it not being appropriate.

When several people are involved with an activity such as this it becomes easier and easier for them to blame the results on peer pressure or some other individual in the group. In this case, I can't see how anyone involved can say they were unaware of what was being presented, and if they can say that they were not aware of how this might adversely impacted members of victims families etc, then I honestly can't imagine what these people must be like in real life. They should be ashamed.

Those strident remarks out of the way, I also believe in giving people a second (and sometimes a third) chance. I've certainly done stupid destructive things in my life. We don't have enough jails to hold everyone who has ever screwed up. People who engage in stupid, inconsiderate behavior should be warned, and warned strongly, and then they should be monitored for repeat offenses. Maybe we need a three strikes and your out rule or something (don't they have that in California? hehe).

The other aspect of this that is forgivable is the enjoyment of playing with the physics in SL. I love knocking over the dominoes, knocking down walls, kicking balls around. Seeing a building collapse and even experiment with different ways of making it collapse would be fine if it were not for the fairly obvious attempt to mimic the events of 9/11. It could have been made to look like a house of playing cards or just about anything and few people would have made any connection with those horrible events.

You have to remember I only had a part in doing this. I may have started the tower style while experimenting in a ton of different ways(cylinders stacked, squares in between 4 cylinder columns, square platforms in between 4 square columns, and so on advancing), but I wasn't the one who decided to make two towers. It was, in a sense, a temporary group project in which I played a part just as everyone else played a part.

bottom line here, is, what is the sandbox area for? It's to test things out, so whining about how ANNOYING it was to you is just as contradictory as saying Derek made the structure to reanact the 9/11 thing. Why would he do that? that's just wrong saying he did, and calling him sick or annoying is just as wrong. Annoynance is a word we may like to call others, but when u look in the mirror, we bring upon most annoyances by things we say and do. Derek is a cool guy, not some annoying monkey, people need to lay off and realize how dumb you all sound.

Well said, Neo!

Just so I don't get misinterpreted again, I said I PREFER to think of Derek as an annoying monkey. That is when he is the most fun to be around. I like Derek a lot, and I wish he would annoy me more. We are fellow sim-crashers . What sickens me is how a little fun in the sandbox got turned into a restimulation of a real world horror, and then was promoted on the front pages of this website.

Like the "War of the Jessie Wall", all I'd ask is that people let the whole story play out, before they make any final judgements. As I said, I did give this story a lot of thought, while reporting on it, and writing it, and just as important to me, I got the permission and support of the SL resident who lost a relative in 9/11, to write it. This person assured me that this crash in Olive was perceived as a memorial to the event, and most key, a part of their own healing process. And while my title here is embedded reporter, I would not have written about it, otherwise.

So again, I do hope people read the whole thing with that in mind.

While I'm not going to comment on the specific event in question, I do have one thing to add.

I always wondered why nobody in Americana had built a WTC memorial.

Unless I misread the article, the objective was to reproduce the destruction of the WTC. I wasn't there, so I was/am just reacting to what was reported. And based on the pictures, I don't see how it could be interpreted any other way. I think that which is appropriate can be illustrated by some examples from real life (not because real life is "better" but because we have so much of it to draw from):

There are re-enactments of battles of the civil war.

There are re-enactments of battles of the revolutionary war.

There are re-enactments of the Alamo.

There is a memorial to the bombing of Perl Harbor.

There is a memorial to the Vietnam war.

There is a memorial to the Holocaust.

There are documentaries about all of the above.

I think it is pretty clear, that for things that are still in living memory of those involved you should tread lightly. The memorials listed above are done with dim lights, somber music, prayers, not bomb-blast soundtracks or people screaming as they die.

Documentaries on more recent events tread lightly too. Notice you haven't seen constant re-plays of the WTC events on TV since 9/11? Thats on purpose, and with good reason.

For things that happened in our great great grandfather's time, the rules are different. Reconstructing the events is in itself a form of documentary, to remind us of the horrors of events that we not only did not see, but probably do not even know anyone who saw said events.

I really don't know why good taste in these matters is so hard to come by. Just pay attention.

Umm, Mac, I wasn't trying to imply that such a memorial should collapse on command. Like I said, I wasn't commenting on the specific incident in Olive.

I was just wondering why nobody's built one in Americana. Has it not occurred to anyone, or does every one feel like you, that it would be in bad taste?

Sorry Grim, I wasn't responding to you but to Hamlet's previous post. And since I was not at the event first hand anyone who wants to can take my remarks as being purely hypothetical.

I'm not sure I would have a problem with a memorial. And if the memorial were intended as a memorial I'd probably keep my mouth shut even if I didn't think it was done in good taste.

However the article that this thread is in response to (unless I totally misunderstood it) was referring to a re-enactment of the event, which I can't see as being in good taste no matter how hard I try and stretch my mind.

I had similar concerns a while back when someone built a replica of the Columbia space shuttle barely 2 days after the real thing had crashed.

I think MOST people understand that there is such a thing as TOO SOON to bring real tragedy into what we often refer to here as "game play". The problem is as with any large group there will always be one or two people who just don't "get it". This is especially true when we are dealing with teenagers and below, and no matter what the rules say, I'm sure there are going to be occasions when that is exactly what we are dealing with.

I don't think we are born with good taste, nor are we born with a particularly perfected sense of what is right and wrong. Like the alphabet these things have to be learned and while at my age things SEEM to be completely self evident, I know that in fact when dealing with "kids" you have to point them in the right direction when you get the chance, because in some cases, there is no one else around to do it. As Hillary Clinton would say: "It Takes a Village".

*bites tongue completely off*

From what I can tell, it was not initially intended to be a re-enactment of any sort. I've built multiple towers in olive before and the could've been just as easily confused as being the same thing. Derek would NOT try to pull a "publicity stunt" of that sort. Everything looks different when you are flying beside it...

I understand that some people feel insulted and outraged that such an event happened in-game. I wasn't aware that such an event was unfolding, but I am rather confused by the feedback.
It seems to me that the people who were most traumatized by 9/11 were the people who were in attendance of this event. I would think that since the world is so large, if you didn't like what was going on then you could just go elsewhere. I'm not discussing the moral implications of whether it's right or wrong to try to simulate such a "delicate" issue on SL, but I hope that this event does not create a ban on certain things being made in-game. Along these lines I have seen Arab looking characters walking around with weapons in SL. Do people feel that this is also angering?
What I'm getting at is that there can be a great deal of meaning behind any action depending on the person. Some actions will also bring current politics into play (like what's happening in Israel right now). I have little patience for people who try to make controversial statements for no good reason and the people that end up yelling about what a horrible thing it was to do it. If this was done to stir up trouble then I say it was very immature. If it was done to test the physics engine for collapsible buildings, I say good for you and please don't crash the server again until the Lindens say they "fixed" the problem
To those who denounce what Derek and his cohorts did I would ask why you stuck around to see what was going to happen? You could have easily just walked away and requested that such activities remain at a minimum in the game. If such things are continued to be built and destroyed, you could talk to the lindens or post on the forums (which many players don't read, sadly) asking for such things to stop and explain why. Now if this event actually happened on 9/11/03 I would say that the people who did it did so in very poor taste, however it was Aug. 5th.

This is a delicate topic, and I'll address it briefly, not because it lacks depth, but because fewer words sometimes say more.

Punish or prohibit this type of action? - No way. We are all adults, and if we are upset to see 9/11 references in-game we are ultimately responsible for our reactions to those symbols. Our desire to block out this horrible event does NOT create in others an obligation to provide for our desire.

In good taste? - From what I read, perhaps not. But remember that we all deal with traumatic events in different ways. The criterion that respectful reenactment should follow an accepted template is fundamentally flawed and unacceptably restrictive. I think if someone decides not to euphemize or block out certain aspects in a reenactment, and that makes us nervous, then that is our own problem.

We share a multi-cultural world of diverse ideas! For our own sanity, we must be tolerant of variations in expression. I am willing to take the originators on their word, that respectful reenactment was the intention, regardless of how *I* usually show respect.

*didn't want to quote the whole post*

Well said!

I was there, and, I know for a fact this wasn't meant as a reenactment. It was just messing around with physics. We didn't even realize it resembled the WTC until someone who had arrived after the 2nd tower was erected told us. To the people who were there before the 2nd tower, it didn't look to be like the WTC, it was just two towers, one built after the other.

I don't think it is sick for something like this to be re-enacted. People heal from things in very different ways. If you have nothing nice to say, hit the back button.

I find this fascinating:

1. The article says that Hamlet was invited to a "re-enactment"

2. The people who supposedly set it up say it was NOT a re-enactment

3. Other people (involvement not specified) say that it WAS a re-enactment, but that it's OK

4. Still other people say that whether it is OK or not, third parties should not express their opinion on the subject

So, it may or may not have happened, it may or may not be offensive, if it happened they were within their rights to be offensive, but if I am offended I am not within my rights to say so.

Have I got it right?

To paraphrase what I told my parents when they once asked me if I had ever used illegal drugs:

Don't ask my opinion if it is not your intention to receive it. (See first message in thread).

I lost several friends and colleagues on 911, and I would have thought we had seen enough cheesy journalistic sensationalism and exploitation of the victims, their families and friends by this time.

If New York City can't decide on a memorial, it's hard to imagine the leadership of Americana - who have the reputation of not being able to agree what day it is - coming up with one either.

Well, generally I try not to get involved in these conversations too much, but I feel I need to speak up here. In reference to Mac Beach's posts, i don't think you understand what really happened. Originally, it wasn't meant as a 9/11 re-enactment. It was just Derek playing around in the sandbox, building towers then making them crash. When the first was done, they decided to do a second (maybe to have a race to see which would collapse faster). I've done this before (not to the same scale), create two exact replica buildings, then drop them at the same time.

But they did not immediatly say their intention was to re-enact 9/11. It wasn't until someone else came up and said that they look like the twin towers did that idea even pop up. Now, while yes, for some, that would have raised a red flag and made them delete the structure, remember, this is a video game. No matter how close we get to real life here, this is still just a game. I REPEAT, THIS IS JUST A GAME. While we do have community standards, and while we should be sensitive to others, games are meant to be a release, a place you can go to do something you normally wouldn't do (an no, i'm not advocating griefing, those people are just out to ruin others fun). In the end, in video games, everything just ends up as words, text that could or could not be saved on the hard drive of a server somewhere (not sure if the lindens do that or not).

Please remember, this is just a game, and the actions of some individuals may affect you in a way they didn't intend. Unless they purposfully doing it to you, just let them be. Go to another part of the world, boycott the New World Notes, do whatever you feel is necessary. But don't attack the people, this may be their release.

Also, one thing a lot of you are forgetting is that a person with a relative in 9/11 was at the sandbox at the time, and he had no problem. In fact, it helped him to feel better about the situation.

While I have my complaints concerning the "Towers" crashing all the time into Slate (thankfully Derek has finally gotten the hint and stopped it), I sincerely doubt that Derek was thinking that this would be a cool think to re-enact.

Most likely what Derek and others thought was, "Gee, wouldn't it be cool to watch more then one tower falling?"

On the other hand, if Derek or any of the group involved were to say, "This is a re-enactment of the 9/11 event", then I would say this was a bit too much.

For those of you that argue that re-enactments happen all the time, please look carefully at WHEN those started to happen. Two years after the massacre at Gettysburgh, people DID NOT go back there and re-enact the battle. Re-Enactments are for HISTORY buffs who are trying to understand how things happen, NOT for the people who lived through the tragedy to understand it, for they understand it all too well, and most possibly in a way we who weren't there at ground zero will never understand. If you want to re-enact 9/11, I suggest you wait 100 years or so before you do it, so those people who still remember it, won't have to re-live those harsh, bitter memories.



Bob "The Builder" Bunderfeld

Yet another one who just doesn't get it.

This is just a game to you. To others, it's a lot more, or something completely different.

It is neither your place nor your right to make this distinction for everyone in SL.