Dropping The Ball

Joining Second Life at the start of July, i found myself in an immersive experience unlike any other massively multiplayer game. Originally based of an idea stolen from a book I love, I immidiately became addicted and have since had trouble logging out for even minutes at a time. I decided that even virtual land would be a worthy investment considering what i thought to be the natural tendency for gaming companies to want to continue to profit and expand/impove their systems and services while in this case keeping a somewhat stable market in play. Since that time, however, LL has whether by policy or ignorance completely deflated the land market to the point that anyones original investment during the previous months has been brought to nil unless they were lucky enough to have invested far earlier (or better yet claimed public land for free as it used to be). With the release of another huge set of sims on the horizon, this trend is likely to continue into the forseeable future. Due to Linden Policy of course, finding out specifically seems inviable. Above and beyond that, UI bug exploits continue to flourish and other long standing complaints have stood un-addressed. How many people have lost their land entirely to a fly-by purchaser or some other kind of scheme? How many have lost their money to fraudulent merchants with false goods without compensation or ability for recourse?

Furthermore, after great hopes for v1.5 the only true changes brought to the game (from my POV) were increased estate powers and a few trivial LSL functions. Although im sure the most premium members are very thankful of this, how many on the main-grid experienced any kind of satisfaction from the update? I have very much enjoyed the new prim, but i wonder whether that one change was really worth three weeks of map bugs, crashes, and downtimes. And during all this, as if it wasnt enough, the time is chosen to relocate hardware and do so without any type of active backup while allowing players to run around at will during mid-afternoon hours. What do we get from this? 2,500 linden dollars. If anyone can explain any of these things to me I humbly request your input.

In answer to this many will likely either say that if i don't like it i should leave (which i might but is not constructive in the least) or that i am too harsh on a group of people who have worked hard (even their best) for the past years to create this amazing world. For many this is true and their dilligence shows through. I applaud them and in no way mean to demean their work, yet i regret the current trends i see and hope to address them and gain understanding, if it exists.

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Deklax
N00b4Ever


P.S. Edit: I am quite pleased to find out that we can all now set land sale prices without offering it to the market for free first =). Wow. TYSM!!!!! Lives have been saved since Sept 22, 2004. =)

SL is still in it's infancy, with cutting edge technology, and all that 'stuff'. It is remarkable that it has gone as smoothly as it has at this point seeing as it has only been around for a year or so. I am truly impressed with what LL has done so far, considering the size of the company. I get so tired of listening to people whine without looking at the big picture. I suppose it's to be expected from the 'me, me, me...now, now, now generation' though.

I feel you pain about the land prices dropping and you losing money, but you have to see what it did overall for the community. Land prices were outrageous, it was to the point that if a new player wanted to own land where they could build a house or whatever on, they had to drop lots of money, sometimes upwards of a couple hundred USD. That, and that alone, really hurt the growth of SL. Imagine how many people signed up for a free trial and left after a few days when they saw that there was no way they could afford to play this game.....I bet it was a pretty large number. With land prices lower, that allows many more people to come and contribute to the world. A couple people may have lost some money, but it was something that needed to happen IMHO.

I agree that some UI bugs and other misc. long standing bugs exist, but LL is aware of them and I am fully confident that they are working to fix them. I'm guessing SL's coding is extremely complex, so I'm not surprised that some bugs take a long time to fix. Patience is a virtue, especially with a game in it's infancy, as Devlin mentioned.

As for v1.5, I get tired of everyone saying that it was a release for estate owners. I saw the new prim and expanded building functions, scripting additions and changes, and overall bug fixes as a huge benefit to the world overall. Sure, some new bugs were introduced, but that happens with every release. But maybe you're right, all those people who paid 1K USD should have to wait another 3 months for the features that were promised to us in May or June. As for the relocation in the midst of all this, I can't see how it's a bad thing. They were working to make the world function better when they moved the servers, and brought SL back online early to appease the customers (now granted, I wish LL would have told us about the risk they were taking so we could make our own decisions as whether or not to build). But they took a risk, and it didn't pay off, but they tried to make it right when people lost their work. What exactly did you want them to do for you, since the L$ are obviously not enough? I don't understand how people can get angry when LL is trying to make things better.

I hate seeing people say stop bitching or leave, and hope that doesn't happen to you. I will however say that if you're not enjoying SL, maybe a break is in order. I did this recently, and have come back to SL a much happier person. Sure, I still get frustrated with some of the things LL does, but it happens, and only because I love this world and care what happens to it. LL cares what happens to it as well, don't forget that.....they wouldn't do something that isn't for the overall good of the community.

Anyways, now that I've rambled forever, I'll just say again that SL is still very young, you have to expect some things to go wrong. Just stick around and remember that this is the start of something big, enjoy being one of the pioneers, and don't forget that even with all the problems and bugs, SL is still an amazing and very fun place.

hmmmm

Although not expanding on the general effects of lower land prices on the community i did consider them, and i dont believe that this is the case. There was previously always land for the landless at the very least that allowed a practically free plot of land for a home. To spend hundreds of dollars would require a significantly higher tier than the standard premium to hold even at that time, and so my guess is that the people that would consider doing that (purchasing 4096m2+, etc) at this point anyways are not those that would have signed up for a basic account and gotten discouraged by a small investment in the past.
Also, with a real stable market more people would not only feel more comfortable over a longer period of time to invest more heavily in something they know they will eventually be able to recoup from, but new players also have a base of worth for their intitial land, allowing them a starting capital that now doesnt exist. I think this is a big part of my discomfort with the new system, because it seems to remove the player from a significant portion of the economy; leaving only the superficial markets of objects/items. Granted plenty can be made in this way at the moment by those with the skills, but what really supports the ingame prices now other than out-of-game real resources being specifically infused inward by players ($)? How many players are willing to purchase all their SL goods with $? I know a lot might already, but I purchased my virtual goods with virtual money i made from virtual land&transactions, and that was quite fine with me. Although this money came from somewhere, it was drawn from a large pool of people who recieved goods and services for their investments that could later be regained rather than one single, direct deposit by me. Without this ability, i for one won't be spending real money to continue the practices, and my stimulus of the SL-economy (and anyone in a similar situation as me) will likely severely decrease. That will really hurt SL.

From: someone

I bet it was a pretty large number. With land prices lower, that allows many more people to come and contribute to the world. A couple people may have lost some money, but it was something that needed to happen IMHO.

IMNSHO, I disagree completely. And your use of the word 'couple' may be misguided. According to a recent forum post i read in the last few weeks there have been on average 80+ new members per day (ie. /18/10/21104/1.html and http://sl.sdfjkl.org/userdata/ ) since the start of July. This doesn't even include the significant number of land-holders previous to my arrival.

It would not have been difficult to provide additional incentives to new and developing players without completely deflating the value of the current player base. Afterall, the great growth within SL that we've seen to date has been under (and due to?) the previous system.

From: someone

I agree that some UI bugs and other misc. long standing bugs exist, but LL is aware of them and I am fully confident that they are working to fix them. I'm guessing SL's coding is extremely complex, so I'm not surprised that some bugs take a long time to fix. Patience is a virtue, especially with a game in it's infancy, as Devlin mentioned. As for v1.5, I get tired of everyone saying that it was a release for estate owners. I saw the new prim and expanded building functions, scripting additions and changes, and overall bug fixes as a huge benefit to the world overall. Sure, some new bugs were introduced, but that happens with every release. But maybe you're right, all those people who paid 1K USD should have to wait another 3 months for the features that were promised to us in May or June.

I think the main reason people are saying that is because it is in general extremely true. The LSL functions likely could have easily been added at any point, and the prim was a bone to the rest of us public-grid users to not feel completely ripped off by the fact that estates got what looks like an ENTIRE .1 evolution to themselves. Absolutely -zero- of the bugs i suffered from previous to the release were fixed, yet more were clearly gained. This means to me that they didnt even attempt to address the most basic of the reported, known bugs in the months prior to the release. Their concerns seems elsewhere to this day.

From: someone

As for the relocation in the midst of all this, I can't see how it's a bad thing. They were working to make the world function better when they moved the servers, and brought SL back online early to appease the customers (now granted, I wish LL would have told us about the risk they were taking so we could make our own decisions as whether or not to build). But they took a risk, and it didn't pay off, but they tried to make it right when people lost their work. What exactly did you want them to do for you, since the L$ are obviously not enough? I don't understand how people can get angry when LL is trying to make things better.

Your point here rings very true. LL brought the grid online to appease -[/I]ESTATE[/I]- customers, bringing their sims online immidiately at the risk of us all. Personally, I'd prefer they refund us by however much we paid them for the past two weeks of unusable service, rather than hand out a virtual currency of their own making.

Anyone want some DeklaxBucks?

From: someone

I hate seeing people say stop bitching or leave, and hope that doesn't happen to you. I will however say that if you're not enjoying SL, maybe a break is in order. I did this recently, and have come back to SL a much happier person. Sure, I still get frustrated with some of the things LL does, but it happens, and only because I love this world and care what happens to it. LL cares what happens to it as well, don't forget that.....they wouldn't do something that isn't for the overall good of the community.

They wouldn't do something that isn't for the overall good of the community, or they wouldn't do something that isnt good for the overall profits of the company (in even possibly the short term)? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

From: someone

Anyways, now that I've rambled forever, I'll just say again that SL is still very young, you have to expect some things to go wrong. Just stick around and remember that this is the start of something big, enjoy being one of the pioneers, and don't forget that even with all the problems and bugs, SL is still an amazing and very fun place.

This I humbly submit for your perusal.

I own experience, 18 months, its best not to play 24/7. It is easy to get caught up with activities and spend a lot of time in world, but its also good to take breaks. When things get frustrating or stale, just take a break and come back when your primed for it again.

I am not terribly thrilled with a lot of the bugs we have been experiencing, but I am sure they will get ironed out. For now, I am on a slight hiatus just to avoid the frustration. Im here for the long haul, but that doesnt mean I have to be in world everyday.

Maybe LL "dropped the ball" with 1.5, but they have a great record of up time. Some problems are bound to occur, its actually very surprising how much in SL goes right most of the time.

Personally, I've always found the idea of investing substantial amounts of money in an online 'game' (or whatever), ridiculous. It's not the real world, and property values can easily be manipulated. In the UK in RL, for instance, we have a housing shortage, and this (among other things) pushes the market up. All the Lindens have to do is put a few more Sims online than usual, and voila - you're screwed. When new land comes online, they own it, so they can do what they want with it, and charge whatever they want for it, so your invested money is completely at their mercy.

It's a fools game to speculate in a market which can be corrected and adjusted whenever the Lindens see fit. Their activity may not be specifically targeted at ending land and linden speculating, but it's done a pretty good job of hampering it. And you don't see me shedding any tears. All of the land barons have cried foul. They say that they were promised the right to make money, and that's what brought them to this game. The thing that most of them don't realize is that there are still perfectly good ways of making a buck that don't involve the parasitic leaching of wealth from the sale of property. It just so happens that the quickest and easiest method of making cash is suddenly drying up. Adapt or die. That's how the REAL business world is.

As others have pointed out, high lands costs are DEFINITELY a barrier to entry. it's indisputable. That's the exact reason why the newbie land exists. But 512 is really not very much land, and the experience is definitely more satisfying when you own more. The Lindens greatly benefit from the now decreased land prices, and so I expect them to do very little to increase the prices to the level that the land sharks would like.

Yeah hold off on the new sims will ya. And can I have 20K of land for free? I'll pay my tier fee, honest.

"Parasitic leaching of wealth"? So, making money through the sale of little virtual items or clothing or your virtual body is a normal economic transaction, but buying and selling LAND becomes a parasitic leaching of wealth? Land baroning; if anything, is more of a service to those with a lower tier than anything.

From: someone

As others have pointed out, high lands costs are DEFINITELY a barrier to entry. it's indisputable. That's the exact reason why the newbie land exists. But 512 is really not very much land, and the experience is definitely more satisfying when you own more. The Lindens greatly benefit from the now decreased land prices, and so I expect them to do very little to increase the prices to the level that the land sharks would like.

Im curious how you came to your conclusion the linden's 'greatly benenfit' from this new market, and how you could know? I mean, were we to reference auction prices, overall income, new subscribers that last over 30 days, etc, there would be some way to verify this; although there hasnt been enough time. My original post was because i felt the exact opposite as you, and I also feel in the long run LL will fail comparatively to what it could have been if they continue to put avarice before common sense. Nevertheless I understand where all y'all are comin from, and obviously theres nothing that can be done from the outside when a game rots from within, but i was just sad to see it happen.

Honestly, this isn't about the investment made or the returns I've personally seen. Markets fluctuate, and you can profit in almost any circumstance. The powers of the Linden's didnt escape me, yet i did however hope they would follow some sort of stable economic model rather than willy-nilly server additions as fast as their tech managed to plug em into the wall. I hoped this for the good of the game, more than the good of my pocketbook. Their original ad-campaign blitz was basically a 30 second commercial that flashed COME TO SL AND MAKE CASH on peoples screen in black and white, and it seems to me that without the land market, what is left here in SL afterwards besides a 3d engine? Would any of you buy a chair from me for $1.40 in 3D Studio Max? NO COPY NO MOD of course, but i can send you a jpg of it!

I get what you're saying, but they're obviously going to keep bringing more servers online as long as people keep joining.

I do think that property prices were getting stupid, and they must have been ruining the quality of SL for a lot of people, who could only afford to pay monthly fees. I'd like to see a lot more emphasis on people making money from in-game skills, as opposed to who has the biggest cheque book in RL - in other words, everyone starts equal. Each to their own, though, I suppose

Of course, it would be impossible to keep RL money out of SL anyway, as Ultima Online & EverQuest proved.

Anyone who came here just to make cash I am happy to see go away. It doesn't add to Second Life.

I don't have access to the Second Life books of course but I'd think monthly land tier fees are more important to them than auction prices. Auctions are one time events. Land tier fees are forever. And of course LL doesn't make a dime on inworld sales. The more affordable a reasonable size (>512) piece of land is the more people they will have paying monthly tiers.

Land tiers are not forever. If they think they are they might be in for a sore surprise. Auctions are quick infusions of cash with no strings attached, no 'service' needing to be rendered and no lag time between releases. Surely there is more potential in tiers, but they both have their own values.

Let me give you some examples of how i think tier-only is a bad idea -

Person A joins the game and gets a plot for the landless in a mature sim, and either
a) (old system) has the option to sell it for an investment capital of nearly 6-10x its original value and shop the market for a diffent location at a variable price or
b) (new "cheap land" system) has the option to build a very, very small home or sell for 1-2x investment and look to relocate elsewhere for a very very similar price. Without larger price ranges large fluctuations are kept to a minimum and therefor profits to move upward in the amount of land you repurchase is decreased.

Person A decides 512m2 isnt enough, and wants to expand:
a) (old) option 1: to take profit from original sale and cash out, to purchase via auctions at near (but still clearly slightly below) market prices, possibly significantly different than your original, or option 2) find someone who had done the service of previously reserving land for expansion and purchase a piece from them, possibly for a price effected by their volume of transactions as well as their decreased tier fees per m2.
b) (new) option 1: liquidate your old land and buy new land on auction for near minimum bid which is already set as high as linden labs feels it can assign at any given moment and have the market support it; infusing entirely new funds from yourself, and a small refund from your original landless purchase or option 2) purchase land from another player who was already charged by LL fees above and beyond 'reasonable' market values set by their policies.
To me the latter seems to give much less upward pressure on tier structure than the former, other than the natural desire to own as much of the world as possible.

These are just two n00b situations in which many people will find themselves in, and they don't yet expand on the downward pressures of tiers and monthly payments that also exist. Am I wrong?

I surely didn't come here to make cash, in fact, I never knew it was possible. Until after spending time here and seeing others buying land at auction and then selling it IW and actually making a profit...then naturally i'm going to want a peice of the pie. Its no different than someone else making a animation couch and selling it for 300L a peice. It adds up and then they cash in their L's for US$. The temptations are there whether or not you intended to make money starting SL.

I don't have a problem with people speculating on land. Especially if they are adding to SL in other ways. But for those who do speculate and suddenly lose money I don't have much sympathy. They speculated, they speculated incorrectly recently, they lost. That's business.

I gleefully anticipate the establishment of an intra-SL system that allows land speculators to "short" the value of land. Then, those that treat buying and selling of virtual land as a guaranteed cash cow can lose even more real currency, and faster. Not the speculators who quietly eat losses while taking the long view and adjusting their interests to reflect the changing face of the world, but the noisy ones who think the same coin will always land heads.

It becomes "parasitic leaching of wealth" when those who profit from the sale of land do so without having invested anything in making the land better. Merely purchasing land and then selling it at a marked up price does nothing to improve that land. You can rationalize it all you want, but the primary motive of land barons isn't to improve the SL economy. It's to make a profit with a minimal investment of time and energy.

Compare this with the clothier who spends 24 hours in Photoshop to make a unique blouse, or the architect who spends a week to build a Victorian home for a client. These people generate wealth. They produce original goods which the market can consume. Land barons don't do any such a thing. They prey upon the land market like a virus, using the land to replicate more wealth without any creative process whatsoever.

Sure enough. I'm just sorry the Lindens let the price of land get so out of control in the first place.



Yes. These are the important things.

The thing is, the land sales are the basis of the economy, and the economy is crashing. Check gamingopenmarket and you'll see the prices plummeted shortly after they changed their landless program and introduced too many new sims.

A thriving commodity market for USD-Linden conversion is a sign of a healthy economy, and a healthy economy is good for Second Life. Crash the economy and we're all sol.

We are in this together, so lets hear some helpful criticism.

If they would reduce or eliminate the auctions for a month or two, the problem will straighten itself out. They could keep the new landowner thing and reduce the supply of total land for sale, and the prices ought to stabilize, with newbies getting some value again for their land.

Dancininda

Land sales should not BE the basis of the economy.

Creativity should be the basis of the economy.

Land for sale is an empty lot. Empty lots are boring.

Could you possibly point out any real world economic model that is based entirely on creativity and the pursuit of ideas rather than actual substance? There -has- to be something to support the worth of the currency, and in turn the worth of the items that were produced for that currency. What would the real world have done without the 'parasitic' nature of land sales, and the natural resources that come with it? What would we have done without Gold? "Second Life". There is no way to create a virtual "reality" without basing it on some sort of real world fact.

Everyone keeps citing the crashing GOM index as proof that the Lindens are "wrong." Thus far, I've not seen any evidence of a crash, impending or otherwise. If the Linden were crashing, there would be a far greater rate of decline in the average trade cost. As it is, I see a minor correction in the market resulting from a number of variables, including the drastic increase in the supply of land. Amazingly, people cite this as proof that the market is crashing. If these Chicken Little investors ever took a ride on the real stock market, I suspect they'd quickly come to their senses about the GOM exchange.

Prices ARE dropping. However, your conclusion that this is proof that the Linden is crashing is utterly ridiculous. Your own personal fortunes might be waning, but that does NOT correlate to impending financial ruin for all parties involved.

Besides, I vehemently disagree with the conclusion that low land prices are somehow bad. Those of us who invested in land before this correction are now out a significant amount of money. I have purchased almost all of my land at more than 8 Lindens per square metre, and now I'm faced with a market where 4 or 5 Lindens per would be severely pushing it. Do you see me complaining? Demanding that the Lindens reimburse me? No, because I knew going in that land prices would fluctuate, and so I'm unsurprised by the current turn of events. I also recognize the fact that lower land prices greatly benefit the overall health of Second Life, even if I suffer as a result of it.

To be frank, if you think that land prices are crashing, then sell your land NOW. Be a wise investor. Don't go crying to mother when your own prophecies of doom come to fruition. Or, hang on to your land in hopes that eventually land prices will increase. Either way, don't go begging the Lindens to artificially inflate land prices. They don't have much to gain from doing so.

As far as this debate over whether land or creativity is the primary currency in SL, I have to agree with both of you. ideally, creativity should be the only valid tender. However, land has become the single greatest contributor to the value of the Linden. Any argument that land SHOULD be the most important thing in this game is missing it on the most important part of what SL is all about. Unlike the real world, the only precious resource in SL is the prim. Though this is currently tied to land, it is really independent from land. The Lindens could tomorrow decide to decouple prim allotment and land, and land would suddenly decline in importance by a huge factor.

Conversely, creativity can never be tempered or modified. It will always be important. Without the things the designers of this world create, there would be NO WORLD. SL would cease to be a complete world.

if you want a game in which you speculate, there are a hundred stock games out there. Or you could put your money into the real market. But don't come into SL with the primary intent of making money from brokering in the land commodity. Because for all you know, it might cease to be a commodity tomorrow.

Is that how you always do it, buy high sell low?



Lol, I dunno; im not sure you read any of my other posts, but if you didnt, refer to above



Uncouple it and what, pay for a prim tier? How would that work? Could you expand a system you think might function like that?

From: someone

if you want a game in which you speculate, there are a hundred stock games out there. Or you could put your money into the real market. But don't come into SL with the primary intent of making money from brokering in the land commodity. Because for all you know, it might cease to be a commodity tomorrow.

Lol wise advice; but to return to what i originally intended this thread to be about - which were my concerns about mostly the long term stability and growth of the game, not any persons particular wealth through it. How does everyone that's been playing this last year losing all their money and even new players getting land cheap HELP SL so much?

I feel like a hamster running on a wheel and getting no where. This'll be my last post on the matter unless someone writes something more sapient than the equivalent of "Nuh unh! You're wrong. I'm right!"

I will only point out that in the last line of your most recent post, you ask what benefit SL would gain from new players being able to purchase land cheaply. I think it's patently obvious that SL would gain immensely from new users being able to join the game without too much initial investment. If there is too much cost involved with joining the game, then the number of new users will decrease accordingly.