Some questions.

Who should hold the rule of law in SL? The lindens? the residents?

Is Linden Labs obligated to provide police power simply because they maintain the servers?

Should the rule of Law be established overall, or could it be effective if established say sim to sim?

Have the lindens hardwired the police power into the code of SL?

Is an Island an adequate model for a a self policing SL community?


Any one have any thoughts?

What do I need police for, I can't die? But if someone is harrasing me I would like to know I have a place to go when I need someone to help me resolve this problem.

As an island owner, I know I have certain powers to contol the flow of things. As above, I would like to know I have a place to go to resolve any problems.

Uh, yes, Jake, lots - if you look through prior threads on this forum and under the "search" function, you'll find a huge volume of commentary on all of these questions. Basically, few people in SL are even willing to consider player-run government and/or player-run rule by law. For the most part each time the questions you've asked were raised, debate was shut down by a healthy democratic practice: majority mobbing the thread and majority corpse-camping if anyone tried to resurrect the issue.

According to the SL majority, there are no politics in SL, and there doesn't need to be. Personally, I find the first idea wonderfully amusing in a Tim Burton/Jonathan Swift kind of way, and the second idea to be something good to strive for.

I have some very definite opinons regarding some of these questions.

In order to formulate a better response, I would need to know what you mean by "police power" and "self-policing." The questions you ask seem to take as an assumption that there is or should be some kind of negative or punitive force that inflicts or dispenses "punishment" for violations of "the rule of law" ie the TOS and CS.

If we can formulate a reasonable definition of "police," we will be able to better understand the policing mechanism in SL.

IMHO,

There's politics aplenty in SL. All social interactions involve politics. What we don't have (and don't need) is over-arching player-run government.

-Ghoti

My feeling is both. I think LL should provide the tools to residents (for what I talk about below) and of course be the only Law that could banish someone from the entire world of SL.



In a way yes. I think any form of government that did form in SL would have to have the LL TOS as its very base foundation. Laws above that would be determined by the resident government.



I would *never* want one resident government for all of SL. I would leave the world before I would submit myself to that. However, I think a sim or a cluster of sims (privately owned - either mainland or island) should feel perfectly fine in establishing a player run government for their land if they so desire. Outside of their land, their government would have no bearing. This would be no different than any *group* setting rules on their group owned land, or a single full sim owner doing the same.



Some yes, but many more estate and group tools need to be added over time that will greatly improve the ability to establish and maintain a player run government. These tools are needed anyway for a variety of reasons, not just for those wishing to establish a government.



Those are my thoughts. And of course these are a part of the reasons I joined the Neualtenburg project. When I think about the future of SL, and the worlds that will develop based on its ideals, then it does give me reason to pause and think that 5, 10, or 20 years from now, with the growth of technology and more people throughout the RL world turning to the online world for business, education, entertainment, etc., we really cannot begin to imagine how much our online lives are going to start resembling our real lives. When the day comes that the online world and the real life world are intertwined so heavily that we cannot tell the difference, then yes, I very much can see governments coming into play throughout the different communities.

To me, these ifs and whens are something to think about. And if we think about them now, and we experiment with different types of online governments now, before it is "too late", then maybe in the future the governments we now live with in our RL will not be the ones to neccessarily take over our online worlds. Through experiments and trials and error, I feel that those currently in online worlds really do have a chance at shaping the future dynamics of online worlds. Some will do it through business practices, others through educational, others still through arts and entertainment, and yes some through politics.

This, to me, sounds like a Plantocracy.

At least in the United States, this form of political order/government based on land ownership was a predecessor to a federal government. Small parcel holders and "renters" would have to bend to the wills of those holding larger parcels or entire sims.

While I certainly do not condemn this idea and, conversely, laud efforts such as Neualtenberg, I think we should be cautious when we claim "there is no government in SL"

Oh, I agree with you here. I think there is a form of government already established SL wide, but I think it is fully in the hands of the Lindens. And most would not call it a government, though to me it seems when you break it down, it really is. The semantics of how to explain my thoughts on all of that are out of my scope of words right now, but in my gut I know it is how I perceive things.

Well let me point out that my meaning as to police power goes beyond simply cops and robbers, if you will.

I think my starting point is how do we enforce contracts in second life? Right now we cannot, but is there a mechanism that could be created by which an agreement could be enforced between two people? Also how are disputes to be resolved, apart from hounding the less popular person out of the grid?

Maybe some background would be helpful.

When we were in SF at the invasion of Linden Lab, we had the opportunity to discuss with Phil some of the issues pertaining to Second Life. It was my impression from this conversation that Phil imagines LL to be more of an innovator and developer than an administrator. I think ultimatley, Phil sees Linden Lab getting away from having to be in a position to police the conflicts between every single user. In truth I do feel like the intention is the SL will spin off into a widespread environment with RL business and society integrating into the 3- enviroment. As an Internet alternative, the question is raised as to how legal intersests are established, protected, traded and waived. I am not being especially clear here, I know, but frankly I sort of got the impression that the discussions that were most relevant to the vision of SL were sort of along the lines of: If Linden Labs is not going to play the role of world governement and police the world, how should this be done?

I think residents take much more to being disciplined by the owners than they would to fellow residents, even if they were elected in the most wonderful way possible. The players of a game take much more to being governed by the game owners than by other players.

If we were subject to discipline by fellow residents in power, then I think the whole environment would start focusing around rebellions, insurgencies, revolutions, coups, etc.

At best, people would feel unduly cramped.

coco

Resident policing has disaster writen all over it. I would say the majority of players are not cut out for the job. Nor do I have any desire to play cop at the end of a hassle-filled work day. Bleh.

I think you have to depend on RL laws (and lawyers) for enforceable SL contracts, just as you would for any Internet commerce.

For the foreseeable future, self-government in SL will be entirely land-related, where property owner(s) have clear power over their fiefdoms.

That being said, I would dearly love to enforce laws while inhabiting a tiny cat av in a policeman's uniform, toddling around saying "'ere, what's all this then?"

I guess what I am saying is that if we consider the hypothesis that SL is not a game, but a tool, then who even owns it? And interestingly enough, why is it you accept that other residents of the US (assuming of course you are a US citizen) can riule over you IRL, but in game residents cannot? Another interesting question.

By what makes you think that the majority of players are not cut out for the job-what standards do you have that suggest someone is cut our for the job? What makes Jeska more qaulified than Aimee Weber?

And I too would not want the job at the endo fot he day. Of coursed Plato said power should given only to those who do not seek it.

While her identity is not defined to me, Jeska acts on behalf of an company which is defined to me. Until the time when an SL player is identified with RL accountability, I do not care to be policed by unknown and fluid entities.

This is exactly why I wouldn't want players policing anything.

Except Pol. Especially if he was a tiny cat in uniform with a British accent.

I prefer my law enforcement officers tiny and power-mad. Like my women.

Right now, someone does own it. And I imagine someone always will.

coco

Actually the answer to this question is on the employment rejection letter I got from Linden Lab ... let me look for it ... AH here it is! Let me quote:



P.S. Pol, that quote is now in my profile

Surely Linden Lab was just joking around with #'s 4 and 5???

>Who should hold the rule of law in SL? The lindens? the residents?

Me!

>Is Linden Labs obligated to provide police power simply because they maintain the servers?

No - they have delegated it to me!


>Should the rule of Law be established overall, or could it be effective if established say sim to sim?

I am still consider how I want to handle the rule of law - until then, everything goes!


>Have the lindens hardwired the police power into the code of SL?

Not sure, last time Phillip was over for dinner, he wouldn't answer me when I asked this.

Is an Island an adequate model for a a self policing SL community?

No!

Well *I* was joking when it comes to #5 (Biting Robin) but she wasn't laughing at the time.

In large part, LL fights the greater expectation set by the gaming industry at large. Regardless how they think of themselves or their offering, it is largely considered a game offering and, as such, there is an expectation set by all which came before that they, as owners, are the defacto administrators.

The only way that LL can realistically step away from this 'obligation' to administer would be to move to licensing of the product rather than offering it as they currently do.

Any other means of granting authority to the user/customer would still hinge upon their being the 'ultimate authority' and so long as they extend the product as a service, this cannot change.

As these MMO's gain popularity to gamers and businesses and
educators, etc we will see more and more of them come online.

I can see in the not too distant future people and groups being
able to "attach" their own servers to the grid, under which THEY
will be allowed full governmental control.

As the MMO population grows in general we will see groups
of incompatible people separate in to their own groups naturally.

The task of LL implementing government control will soon
become overwhelming and it will be in their best interest
to elect (either by a LL staff or more likely by popular vote)
a "president" who will enforce policy on a cluster of sims.

If you don't like the policies there... you move.
Rather than "jail" or a "death sentence" the undesirables
might get banned from large groups of specific sims.

As it stands... I might suggest that LL does not ban people
from the game for bad behaviour, but rather create a
seperate custer of sims for those people to be bannished
to. That way they can still live.. and harrass the other
"bad" folks. Perhaps that will be a place where some people
will try to reform those that have misbehaved in the past.

The SL world is too small for this right now, but when we
reach 100,000+ people getting in-world for entertainment
and to conduct business this will HAVE to happen, unless
the LL staff is going to grow to outrageous size for unneed
reasons, as well as allowing for people with different goals
and mindsets to live in a country with laws and rules that
match their personal tastes...

Such as all the socialists on one side, and the capitalists
on the other. I'm sure there are plenty of other groups
that will branch off. It will get to big for LL when all they
need to do is allow residents to be ellected to power for
limited terms over clusters of sims.


Gabrielle

While I'm inclined to agree with you, I'm wondering why you're so sure there aren't other, "third" alternatives. In RL, for example, public utilities comprise a kind of "third alternative". Might there be opportunity here for some new approach?