Transfer of Neualtenburg possible?

Please, everyone take this as purely a philosophic question.

I have, I believe, friendly relations with Sudane, Kendra, Dianne, Aliasi in-world, and I know... Ulrika and Kevn for a while, from forums only.

I wish to maintain such, and should this question offend in *any* way to any one of you, or the Neualtenburg people, it will be retracted instantly with apologies.



This is in the political science forum because I'm hoping for a serious, measured, political science answer. I've read a lot of the Neualtenburg literature, but simply haven't found anything addressing such.

Please presume that Neualtenburg's internal issues are worked out for the sake of this question - that all internal disputes are resolved and the government is in full control of all assets and its faculties.


Question:

1) Could Neualtenburg ever be sold, and if so,
a) what conditions or terms would apply? (esp. w/regard to self-autonomy)
b) what *could* be sold - and be retained by the buyer? (IP, rights, &c)
c) if unknown, is there an internal process by which to answer such a question?

I'm not talking about just 'buying the sim name' only, or merely the objects within. I'm talking about an essentially intact, populated Neualtenburg - one with residents largely, happily looking forward to the future.

Neualtenburg has a lot to offer as an historic, themed area and has nascent potential value to an owner both as investment property (esp. in terms of expanding its demesne to many, many sims) and also as a fascinating study in political science.

I have long admired the effort poured into Neualtenburg's domestic policy.

But I suppose this is a 'foreign policy' question?


Thanks to all in advance for their civilised, intellectually stimulating responses.

It's an interesting question. Obviously, from a real-life legal perspective, all that matters is the sim owner of record selling, but this wouldn't do so well from a PR and happiness of citizenry perspective, and you did specify an intact sim.

The idea that the private sim of Neualtenburg might be transferred to another citizen in the due course of events has been brought up, although there's been no need to as of yet.

As for actually selling the sim, that would also depend on whether there was agreement that Neualtenburg retained it's political independence, even if the actual money was coming out of someone else's account, I imagine. Could you elaborate?

(Also obviously, my own thoughts are just my own thoughts; while they are considered and possibly even correct, they're far from official as I have no involvement beyond residency at this time.)

To elaborate a little -

...the reason this is in the Political Science forum is because there *would* be some issues with regard to autonomy.

Please allow me to make an utterly ridiculous example to illustrate a point: citizens could theoretically vote to end all land payments.

Unless the new owner would unquestioningly accept a philosophy that in extremis, would allow the sim to fall into default.


Allow me to ask this as a political science question:

What would happen *now* if for whatever reason, there were not enough donations or income to sustain Neualtenburg under its current political system?


Do your laws require it to cease to exist - placing it's principles of governance over possible survival as something different, or antithetical to its original ideals?


I suppose I am asking to know the very heart and soul of the Neualtenburg projekt, in asking this question.

Hi Desmond, no offense taken. I expect what would happen is that the city would shrink to a size it could sustain from its citizenry. Actual transfer of authority to a foreign gov't or annexation probably requires constitutional amendment followed by (if referendum legislation passed) a citizen referendum. I leave it to the SC to give a more formal treatment of the subject.

-Pelanor Eldrich (DPU-NRA)
Principal, Eldrich Financial of Neualtenburg, Inc.

Technically, N'burg is a RL business, a nonprofit cooperative, that allows a group of people to pool their purchasing power to make land more affordable. This nonprofit cooperative directs itself internally and externally using a governmental system. Upon joining, individuals agree to contracts which bind them to the law.

So, could N'burg be sold? Yes. It could be sold by its owners, which are the members of the cooperative (the citizens) themselves. They'd have to collectively agree on the terms of sale and then divide any profit accordingly. Conditions would be negotiated in the contract. Items which are owned by the city would be transfered and items owned by individuals would not. Thus deciding who owns what (objects and IP) would be part of the internal negotiation before agreeing to a sale.

Because N'burg is a RL business, a nonprofit cooperative, just like any other business, if it fails to pay its bills it is shut down.

Because the transition from group ownership to individual ownership would redefine the project, it's difficult to say how that would affect the sim's government. My guess would be that in a transfer that allowed citizens to remain, the government would change to an autocracy (possibly augmented with the old system of governance) as a result of the new single owners.

~Ulrika~

Technically, there is no RL business at all, actually. You've got to register those things, y'know.

Interesting --in that case wouldn't the holder of the copyrights for Neualtenburg essentially hold all IP rights to the usage of Neualtenburg. The Sim according to LL would be held by Rudeen Edo --but all actual IP rights to Neualtenburg are essentially at this moment being used at the discretion of the holder of the IP rights.

In that sense, Neualtenburg is very easily a transferable entity, as anyone could purchase a Sim.

I was under the impression no one actually paid for Neualtenburg. That no one actually owns it, rather it's on a lease from LL.

Not according to Aliasi. She seems to think we are all renting from Rudeen, as opposed to being a group owned land cooperative.

In point of fact we all own the Sim on which Neualtenburg sits.

But does LL recognize that fact? Or do they treat Rudeen as the owner who paid for the sim with the power to sell it?

My point is one has to seperate "Neualtenburg" as copyrighted IP --and the Sim of Neualtenburg --which is frankly --just a Sim.

Fascinating and deeply illuminating!

I believe my questions have been answered - thank you all. It gives me quite a bit to think about.




I 'peeked' into the Neualtenburg group forums again last night - what a lively area!

And learned something quite astonishing: that there will be another sim, but not in keeping with the original theme - not by a long shot. And as such, not linked to the first?

Very. Interesting. Move.



Walking around in Neualtenburg, one quickly gets a sense of the size and scale of it; it begs to dominate a landscape.

To look upon the bridge is to wonder: where does it go?

It vanishes into oblivion, but you can feel the call of the far side - for an instant you can see Schrodinger's cat napping on a low stone wall. Then gone into the mist once more.

The countryside itself hints to be part of a greater whole - a wide green land full of domesticated creatures, country lanes and fascinating people.

Walk down that country lane far enough - the valley becomes mountains... then a border outpost high in the pines... then... another country? I wonder which country, sometimes.

*warm smile*


Good luck with Colonia Nova.

You have two separate questions here -

(1) What would it take to buy the "physical" representations of Neualtenburg?

Answer: Purchase from the owner and transfer of "title" through the LL-built exchange medium.

(2) What would it take to buy the "culture" of Neualtenburg?

Answer: You can't. You can only negotiate with the individuals who comprise it for its accurate retention or transfer to a new environment.

ding ding ding. we have a winner

No one bought N'burg, it's on lease from LL as an experiment, if I'm not mistaken. I don't understand how one could sell a sim one didn't purchase. It would be like selling the landlord's house.

you are mistaken. You are confusing the present private island sim of Neualtenburg with it's original incarnation in Anzere.

Who then paid for the current sim?

You can buy artifacts (clothing, music, writing etc.) of a culture. You cannot buy it in totality. Culture is transmitted though the adoption of ideas, attitudes, values and practices. In that sense, you could set up a gov't very much like NBurg tomorrow on your own. Think of the Romans in Judea. They had political control through conquest but did not adopt Jewish culture, and actually had little influence on it.

Whether its culture would resemble NB's is another question entirely. I expect elements of our culture to shift quite a bit with the new sim attracting a slew of new immigrants.

we all did.

I believe that's what I was saying....

"Purchase from the owner and transfer of "title" through the LL-built exchange medium." - CC

Someone or some group is responsible for the LL "lease", and the "LL-built exchange medium" designates some entity as the point of payment. Check with LL if you're unsure.

It is my understanding that the RL person behind the avs Sudane & Rudeen purchased the sim on behalf of the Citizens of Nburg via funds raised for the that purpose by the citizens. She is the owner of the sim, or lease if you will, in LL's eyes. She has established a N'burg paypal account for the purpose of paying the tier.

When you purchased land in the sim, you joined the inworld N'burg cooperative. Your purchase price was your contribution towards your share of the original purchase price. Your monthly rent is your share of the sim's "tier" paid to LL.

An idea was raised in the N'burg forum of transfering the RL ownership of the sim to a non-gov't official or rotating ownership or something so as not to make one person too powerful, but the idea was dropped as LL charges big bucks to transfer island ownership - $150 or $200.

I believe incorporation of N'burg in RL was discussed at one point, but also dropped as that would entail the RL realities of running a corporation - e.g., real identities being publicly known, shareholders meetings, registration with the IRS, paying corporate taxes, annual reporting requirements, etc.

I believe you mistake my question entirely.

Your item (2): "buy the culture" is clearly a straw man argument - I never asked such a thing.

There are significant portions of the culture in Neualtenburg that I think the residents themselves would expunge if they could - who would want such infighting?

"I'd like to buy thirty hours of spiteful drama please - with multihued chat logs and inflammatory screenshots..." I don't think so! Besides, we get it for free already in forums - this is not exactly something you would need to purchase!

This was a political question, *not* a cultural one, and the other responders recognised the precise issues I sought to understand.


At any rate, I got very illuminating responses and am quite satisfied. I am done with it, for now.

This certainly is wide open for interpretation as to what you meant, but I think an intact, populated N'burg with happy resis includes more than a political system though perhaps not the "culture" per se.

I had thought I was clear, prefacing it with this:



...plus I had never even remotely considered the possibility of 'buying a culture'.

But who knows? Coming to a sim near you: "Smile like you mean it" signs in the breakrooms behind the shops!

But hey, it's the forums - rarely do we project what we intend, and rarely should I be taken very seriously anyway.

*wanders off, humming "Edelweiss"*