is this government?

why, or why not?

/invalid_link.html

Please paraphrase the question as those two blurbs only leave readers dazed and confused as to what your tying to ask.

Shadow

I see a problem and an example of a popular vote. This is, at best, evocative of pure democracy, and even then a tiny portion of it. "Is this government?" is WAY too broad a question.

Remember, even anarchy is a form of governance. That said, I really see no relevance in the question asked. No offense.

in think dazed and confused characterize the discussion around government in sl.

the thread i pointed to is one of the way things get done in sl. is this a manifestation of govermment? is this how sl is governed? yes, no? why, or why not?

To kind of add to my previous post, I think we need to get away from the concept of "voting = democracy = government." It's very widespread, and erksome that many people fail to realize there is a hell of a lot more to governance than democractic or "coined" concepts.

Not to acuse you directly of that. It's just the big myth around this subject.

Thank you for the clarification, I will reply shortly when I get my next break.

Shadow

Thank you Jeff and Echoed.

I think it's not quite a government, because the local landowners have no power to enact the change discussed. They will only be petitioning LL to do something for them.

Still, the outcome will be interesting, because the majority of those heard on the subject would like the new continent telehub-free. Do local landowners have more pull with LL in regional issues than a grid-wide majority? Granted, those who voted to oppose telehubs represent a small fraction of the total world population, but if the locals do get their way it at least points to a possibility of regional "governments" having sway with official LL actions.

Unless the above was intended to link to something other than someone asking for a telehub in the "Northern Continent," I'd say it's customer service. Customers A asking for something, Customers B asking for not-something, and Service Provider C asking for a clearer statement of need.

To answer the question more directly, I say it's not government because the people involved are not citizens and government officials, but customers and employees.

It is Mercury telling us that they read the local papers up at Olympus, and that Zeus can be petitioned.
I would characterize it as "benevolent rule" more than "government", and I'm fine with that.

gov·ern·ment
n.
The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.
The office, function, or authority of a governing individual or body.
Exercise of authority in a political unit; rule.

Anarchy
an·ar·chy
n., pl. -chies.
Absence of any form of political authority.
Political disorder and confusion.
Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

is it possible we are going to be united in somekind of common standard? I don't want people 'voting' out W-Hat just because they may make some 'tasteless' art, who would be next? RacerX Gullwing for being a weird genius? if we try and regulate this GAME we will lose creativity and me as well...

Again, we're right back to popular elections and how government equals an overarching body of (oppressive) power.


gov·er·nance

1. The act, process, or power of governing; government.
2. The state of being governed.

In the anarchy example, governed by "no one" or "an unidentifiable system."


I think, ultimately, that a system where we, the residents, can sustain ourselves will need to exist in some form. If LL intends to establish a metaverse that transcends company boundaries, some form of keeping things in order will need to exist. That need not be some form of Illuminati Congress where votes are selectively heard; it can very easily be much like the Internet exists now.

Such is why there's so much debate in the existance of this forum. Too often we forget that "the lack of a government system" is, indeed, a system of government or governance. I realize that's a conundrum - but it's very much relevant to discussion here, no matter which way you prefer it phrased.

No, it's not government, just a few people and their alts spamming forum polls to skew the perceptions the Lindens get about "the community".

That's democracy? huh.

Surely they factor that in, Robin has now said landowners should be consulted.

Wise idea! They paid!

So join New Continent Pioneers if you would like to support the effort to lobby Lindens for telehub placement in the new continent.

It's governance, not government.

ok then what is 'governence' in terms of SL?

if it has nothing to do with popular opinion or the TOS from LL just what are we talking about then???

The current, overarching system that forms the basis of resident interaction. You may draw from that what you will.

In the article you linked to, an individual is trying to get a teleporter placed in a remote area to improve visitation and possibly business. In addition to their argument of facilitating travel they mention that there is at least one more person who would like a teleporter.

Is this government? It certainly is evidence of one! If these individuals had complete liberty over their land, they'd simply put up a teleporter of their own. However, they do not. Instead they are petitioning the Lindens who govern the land, using an implied majority (democracy) to help add weight to their argument. (Now you know where the name "Governor Linden" came from.)

To me, LL is so unambiguously a government that I really have to try hard to understand why others can't see it. It's like a dinner party sharing a table with a giant squid, where I keep pointing out the squid while everyone else denies it exists.

~Ulrika~

Jeff, you may be an intelligent and well meaning person, but you are not speaking in language that I can understand. Maybe you are just joking around???

Prokofy/Random's use of "governance" over "government" is an example of euphemistic language. Euphemistic language is a tool used to mask unpopular concepts. For instance, one may say "military action" instead of "war". In this case it's used as a tool to delegitimize the concept that government currently exists in SL.

What makes the substitution so awkward for me, is that the word "government" focuses on the organization, whereas "governance" focuses on the process and system. Nonetheless, when one states "governance", it does imply the existence of an entity with power, either governmental or corporate.


From Wikipedia:




After reviewing their definitions, it is clear to me that LL has the power to make and enforce laws (ToS) for a certain territory (SL). It is unambiguously a government. The discussion of how they execute their government is a discussion of governance.

Thus, it's governance and government.

~Ulrika~

If one is sharing a table with a giant squid, is ordering calamari as an appetizer considered poor form?

If we already HAVE government in the form of the corporation of Linden Labs, wouldnt it be much more productive to find ways to help each other within the exsisting structure of said government rather then debating if we needed yet another government to interact with our government for us? If you want a job in the current government, wouldnt it just be easier to go ahead and apply for a job with Linden Labs?

Come to that, we also have clothing in the form of the appearance menu tools from the Lindens. Nonetheless, I'm teaching myself Photoshop -- I find the existing tools deficient, and I've always dreamed of learning that app.
If I ever try to sell a skirt, no one need buy, just as I have no desire to buy into the idea of a themed sim.

I appreciate the tenuousness of my analogy, but I really see it that way.
For some people the "game" of SL is building; for others it's scripting; for others it's playing the L$ market or learning Photoshop. If they're doing it on their own land and I'm not compelled to address it, I don't concern myself about someone's "game" being politics -- other than to perhaps applaud another SL resident following a dream in an environment designed to consumate dreams? And if that dream provides for some a perceived need or remedy to a perceived deficiency, is that not being productive?

yeah, we don't need elected representatives, for example, to talk to the existing government, they are going to respond to us as individuals and as a collective in the way they choose. I do not want someone talking to LL for me.

Nah, I can really be that dense when I want to be.

First, let's step back. What is government? As Ulrika mentioned, many definitions exist. In my book, government is a system used to manage people; it is the system through which people interact and obtain an end result. Of course, this is the broadest definition there is. I'm using it to serve a point.

My first point was that the lack of an apparent system is still a system. "Anarchy" can very easily fit here as a form of government, but this is where you can define it as you please.

As to my second point, in ways I was just being a pompous asshole - even though I was being quite serious. I asked you to look at how Second Life is currently governed and draw your own conclusions. I apologize if this was unclear.

---

Second Life is, presently, governed in two ways as I see it. First, at the very top by Linden Labs - they hold the capital. No questions asked here. Second, by residents. This is the trouble area. I would say this second area is a form of anarchy purely because no one form of government exists at that level. Again, I would take that as a form of government all its own.

---

At any rate, I do prefer asking roundabout questions. If you feel I'm throwing you a curveball, ask. I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence with them, nor laugh from up-on-high.

I just enjoy probing discussion to see what happens.

Should you be the only one at the dinner party who avers the existence of the squid, parsimony would suggest that the squid isn't there.

but here there is more than one faction at the party, and some see squid, and some don't.

why is that?

summary:
robin mentions a poll in the forum that seems to be against a th, but robin seems to think the desires of the local landholders is of more interest to ll.

a decision will be made with some player input.

which features of this make it government like or not government like?

and even if this is not government like, that still begs that question how/when/why any person or group can/may/should affect the decisions ll makes.

i'm much less interested in government than i am interested in how policies that affect me are made.

Well Malachi... if we apply occams razor we can see that the squid is actually a superhero come to save us - because the house had eaten us...

Always happy to help.

Siggy.