how does linden labs recognize/enforce in-world agreements

currently, i'm developing some marketable products that would most likely fall under umbrella of the "intellectual property" in the real world. granted, my ideas are not completely original, as there is something similar in existence in the real world. my concern is that the very people i intend on marketing to could very easily take my idea and implement it on thier own, and thus circumvent the use of my services (for which i would charge, of course). granted, there is work behind the idea that makes the service worth paying for, but i still would like to protect myself via confidentiality and non-compete agreements.

does anyone have any experience with these types of agreements in-world? how do you execute a bound contract given the fact that there is no way to affix a signature? i'd also like to know what recourse, if any i would have in the event of breech-of-contract.

any constructive feedback and information will be appreciated.

SORRY I misread the original.

An option...

Residents can come upon inworld agreements between themselves. You may be curious to check out... one excellent example of this is Zarf Vantongerloo's Nota Bene service @ Thyris (14, 178). Check out the NWN story too.

you'll get told to file a DMCA complaint.

which you probably won't.

so they'll get away with it.

</cynicism>

torley...excellent piece of info that should be more prominently available, especially considering that players are encouraged to become entrepeneurs.

kris...how do i say this without sounding like i don't appreciate your input...

i guess there's no way not to, since i don't...which is why i included the caveat at the end of my original post: "any constructive feedback and information will be appreciated."

i think the grievance section is two doors down and to the left.

reverse engineering is allowed if i remember

well good luck to enforce your exclusivity to an idea here

Wait til the first time you're royally fucked over and go talk to LL about it. Maybe someone will just reverse engineer your product, as Kyrah says. Maybe they'll just hack the client and take yours as theirs lock stock and barrel. All happened before.

Do come back here and whine about it, won't you? So I can say I told you so

thanks for the well wishes kris, especially since you seem to have missed the point of the thread entirely, and don't seem to fully grasp the concept of intellectual property, which doesn't always pertain to a tangible product. ever hear of non-compete or non-disclosure agreements?

best of luck to you

The IP challenges in SL have many of the same challenges of totally digital products in Real Life, compounded by the fact that much of the product is "micro-payment" based, and too small to justify the real costs of real world legal actions and enforcement.

The broader and initial question is how do rights holders (including contract rights holders and holders of civil rights such as freedom from harassment, etc.) enforce those rights? Without enforcement, without a remedy, the "right" is little more than a fantasy.

I suspect that LL is not going to be in the business of enforcing Intellectual Property rights, contract rights and civil rights for long for free. That raises the challenge to denizens of SL to develop some organized system of internal law and some system of enforcement.

In the interim, developers of items that might be protectible IP in RL may have to face the fact that their product value is dependent upon things like:

Freshness -- is it so new that the developer is the best source? The daily newspaper is an example. It could be photocopied and passed around next week, but by then, the "old" news is no longer in demand. Be prepared to have "new" stuff frequently and regularly that makes the "old" stuff "stale." The fashion industry has been doing this for a long time, making sure fashionistas turn their noses up at "so last year" items in favor of whatever "the new black" is. At the same time, the "knock-off" industry churns out the copies and gets them on the street globablly faster and faster every year.

Live performances and services -- for years, the Grateful Dead encouraged fans to record their concerts and swap the resulting tapes. The band realized that their recording sales may have been reduced, but they also realized that they were building a special franchise for attendence at concerts. Many could sell bootleg tapes cheap but a Dead concert was sui generis ... something unlike any other. Ask someone who recently attended a Rolling Stones concert or the big music festival at Glastonbury, England if that is easily copied.

In the long term, those in SL serious about things like service contracts and "land trust" agreements may have to do things like:
develop some contracting skills adapted from Real Life,
hire those who do (see live performances and services above),
learn about the in-game notaries to lock down terms of such contracts, and
develop an in-game system of dispute resolution and peer enforcement that relies somehow on something other than LL applying the death penalty to naughty violators.

One might learn from some of the "strictly ruled" private island sims in SL. I've been visiting some of the Gorean sims recently, to study and learn about how they enforce their rules and protect themselves against those philosophically hostile to their philosophy. Clearly expressed rules and expectations seem the first step, followed by peer and leader pressure in the form of warnings, with lifetime banning the ultimate sanction. Much to learn there.

Like many RL situations, earning the right to rule and enforce may require some gold, enough to buy one or more large sims or islands and keep violators out and foster producers and participants inside. Anyone who has ever been part of, a visitor to, or been kept out of, a particularly attractive private club, island or estate, can see the benefit and costs of maintaining exclusivity. "He who has the gold, rules" remains a real world reality, and those without gold have resented it for thousands of years.

I'm happy to help with ideas and services, for those who might be serious about exploring this further.

~ Frank ~

your problem is that nobody will enforce these contracts, prolly not LL for sure.
well its YOUR problem for me ^^

Well, I gotta say I'm about to dive into the marketing world as well, and I worried. What if someone steals my ideas? What if someomeuses my stuff as a basis for theirs?
What if my IP is ripped off and someone else gets the L$?! *GASP*

... then I realized. Bloody hell. I pay like, 10 bucks a month, and sell stuff for around 350L apiece. Its not a substantial investment, and I certainly am never going to make enough income for it to amount to much. *shrugs*

There are a few people in SL who can make a halfway decent living off it. A handful at most, I should think. They might... *might*... have cause to bring charges forth or something. But for the majority, I would think 98% of us, its not worth the time or the effort.

At least that's my view... if someone outright stole my item and did an exact copy of it, then I'd be annoyed, but if someone took my idea, and made it ten times better then more power to them, and its incentive for me to build an even better mousetrap, crush them under my heel, steal their stuff, burn their home, carry off their womenMWAHAHAHA...

Sorry. *cough* Got carried away. But you get my point.

Don't sweat the small stuff, and for most of us, SL is small stuff, or at least it should be.

To the best of my knowledge, LL doesn't recognise or enforce inworld agreements. They'll try to help fix things up that are the result of a bug or an honest mistake. But of you make a loan to someone and they welch on it (as an example), that's your own problem.

Presently, the only way to guarantee an inworld agreement is to deal with someone who isn't going to break it. I realise that's not very helpful.

Generally you can't protect ideas as such. Limited IP protection comes in different forms:-

* You have RL copyright automatically in creative works including coding put into written form and that can include digital form and would cover such published in SL.
* Patents by and large cannot be obtained for ideas per se , albeit the US Patent office is more liberal in this regard, especially for internet business ideas, than Europe. But once you publicise by launchng the busines you lose the right to apply for a patent.
* You can sue in RL if someone 'passes off' your internet business as their own so people think they are dealing with you and not them. This not likely to apply.
* Before launching a business idea you might ask those working with you or to whom you wish to disclsoe it to sign a Non-Disclosuer agreement and a Non-Compete agreement, but once you launch it the NDA becomes of no relevance. It woud make no commercial sense to require customers using the sevice to sign such an ageement so I am unclear why you refer to a possible document,

You have already said that the idea is not new so its not clear where in you would have any IP rights at all.

Intellectual property rights are hard and expensive to perfect and enforce in real life. Just ask Microsoft about Windows piracy in China, or the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) about "peer-to-peer" music sharing.

In SL, they will be virtually impossible to enforce. So, why do people create anyway?

One way is that the game helps creators make outright copying hard for most folks to do. Experienced coders may be able to crack the code on cool scripts and designs, and re-sell them, but most folks I've met in SL are consumers who enjoy nice clothes and environments and don't bother to look under the hood. So SL makes it easy to make stuff "no copy".

A second way is make it easy to develop and put out new stuff. Like in real life, "last year's fashions" are less desireable, partly because they are copied and the copies show up in lower priced stores and being worn by "ordinary" people like me. The real fashionistas who pay top dollar (top Linden?) want stuff that is really new, something nobody else in their circle has. So SL enables anybody to make stuff from scratch from free "raw materials."

A third way is to make the total environment big and complex, so new stuff is harder to find. This enables people to make a living or do favors by finding new and unusual stuff and telling only their special friends about it. Think about those gypsy dance clubs and parties that secretly rent a warehouse, tell a select few that "there's a party tonight at 123 Warehouse Row ... theme is Pimp and Ho, come early and stay late." Being in that circle of friends has value. That "mailing list" has value as IP to all on it. That can be protected by secrecy and trust.

So, what does this mean to creators? I think it means, create fast and never stop innovating, because the barbarians are gaining on you. Andy Grove (founder of Intel) wrote "Only the Paranoid Survive" on this premise. No matter the present value of the wonderful things Intel has produced, they always have a competitor like AMD after them. http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/bios/grove/paranoid.htm

Anyone see another way to protect IP in SL?

Frank

Here is a solution which might be useful under some circumstances.

Write the contract. Include specific penalties for violation of non-compete, non-disclosure, etc, and a specific expiration period.

Find a third party that both of you trust, who will: (1) take your full fee for execution plus the maximum penalty under the agreement from the customer; (2) be responsible for paying you when you are finished; (3) return the customer's penalty deposit at the end of the contract period; and (4) mediate any disputes according to the terms of the contract.

Enforcement of in-world agreements is one of the big issues standing between Second Life and a robust economy. I'd like to see this sort of arrangement done successfully, and would be willing to act as escrow agent.

(Although you're probably well advised to avoid anyone who approaches you first! There are plenty of well-known high-integrity people here, and I'll bet you could find one of them willing to help.)

--Allie

As I understand it, LL isn't going to enforce/protect anything relating to player creations or business ventures. Nor should they. They've stated that the actual players/creators own the rights to whatever they create in game. It is entirely up to the creators to decide how they will protect their legal rights (or if it's even worth it to them to invest the time and real-world money it might take to secure those protections). LL has no further obligation.

I'm paying particular attention to Frank's posts... he seems to have the best grasp on the subject.

its been my experience that LL does enforce the big guns such as Disney in SL, several ppl have had to pull Disney and Warner Bro's items out of their shops, but as far as anyone in SL with orginal ideas, being taken, pftt we're small fish, they arent going to get involved.

Disney can afford to sue LL into oblivion, even if they have no case.

Almarea, what you are suggesting is called a surety in real life. A vital part of contracting and financial services. It may take the form of a surety bond, a completion bond or a performance bond. It is all part of the business sometimes thought boring: bonding and insurance. As you said, without it, commerce is very limited.

In real life, bonding and insurance did not wait for government. It arose as an organized enterprise in Phoenecia, then the Italian merchant classes, but took flight in the City of London around the tables of Lloyds' Coffee House, where ship captains gathered to discuss trade, shipping, the predations of pirates and Napolean's navy, and to bind their words as gentlemen to pay the losses of another if his ship was lost. For a fee, of course.

In real life, sureties often insist on collateral or other security. Or, they count on the ability to take legal action against the principal if he does not perform. In real life, this takes the forms of legal action, or even (in the case of bail bonds) sending tough guys out to physically corral the body of the bonded person and bring them into the court.

Today, the business of suretyship is a quiet, yet enormous and vital business. It is, as you say, Almarea, dependent upon some trusted third party with enough capital to make good on its customer's commitments to pay.

The variation you mention, Almarea, an escrow agent, is a more simple structure that may be more easily implemented in SL, where legal enforcement is more of a challenge. Its the sort of thing that attorneys, banks and trust companies engage in all the time.

These are the sort of working or potential systems that we in the Law Society of Second Life look to study and understand.

Mina, thanks for your kind words. I'll try to be worthy of them.

cinda and Dyne, you are right ... the "big guys" who own IP, like Disney, cannot afford to let their rights be infringed in SL, especially since the RL law of trademark requires enforcement to avoid trademarks falling into the public domain. That's how once-valuable marks like "aspirin" were lost forever. They have the money to pay lawyers to lean on Linden Labs and get them to execute player accounts violating those marks, or else they will get injunctions against LL.

Like anything in real life, the 800 pound gorillas get attention and respect. The 80 pound chumps ... er chimps ... have to make their own law in the margins where the gorillas don't have a stake worth protecting.

We are the chimps, but at least we have each other.

Frank

Disney items didn't originate in Second Life. It's not quite the same thing as player creations.

ah i see but sl is about fun as well thats why people come to sl to get away from rl sure some have busness here ......but at the end of the day there here because they want to enjoy there self not go on about crap that dont matter,

Well, too many people aren't seeing it as a way to have fun. A great many people seem to see SL as only a way to make money.

And actually, wouldn't it be cool if in Real Life everyone just tried to enjoy themselves and help others enjoy themselves?
*le sigh*


... andon the subject of chimps, that explains why I'm always getting poo thrown at me o.O

Harlequin and Lumina,

I've been working with simulated societies since a Sociology course used "SimSoc" in 1969, and with virtual worlds for several years. Second Life is the most sophisticated simulation of a society (other than First Life, which some think is "real" I've encountered.

Not surprisingly, just as in First Life, most folks who can afford to, prefer to have just have fun, and help others without thought to compensation and organizations. But not all.

A small percentage prefer to make mischief. A small percentage prefer to develop organizations and commerce. All human traits. All perfectly natural choices.

What ratio of any of those three rough categories is "too many" is a judgment I'll leave to others. Each of us has different tastes and interests, and SL is fortunately big enough for all to pursue them without interfering with the others. For myself, I enjoy doing the fun thing, the studying the system thing, and have tried to resist the mischief thing.

Enforcing agreements and organizational rules is a legitimate interest and study in my book, and one I hope some folks will join in examining in an organized fashion. Who knows? Those who "do commerce and organization" (think Disney or Virgin's Richard Branson) may actually bring us all some more fun things to do.

Frank

I would like to raise the point that for some, fun and profit are not mutually exclusive.

I think the concept of SL as a "society" is valid, and seeing how it develops over time could be a legitimate and interesting subject to observe and study. There are enough parallels between Second Life and First Life to keep any serious observer occupied for a long time.

There are major differences, as well, between those two "lives". In studying SL as a society, the major difference (in my mind) is the "why" factor. Why are we living in SL, building homes, socializing, creating organizations and commercial enterprises, rather than focusing all that energy and creativity (not to mention time) into further improving the "real" world we live in?

I've often asked myself why I'm here in SL. My usual is answer is, "escapism... to get away from the real world for a while." But I don't trust my own answer, since my own world, though far from ideal, is also not a bad place to be most of the time.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is my feeling that any serious observer of SL society might learn more if that "why" factor is weighed in as an integral part of any long-term study.

(This is a bit off-the-mark regarding the original subject line, and for that I apologize. But I do think it is related.)

The questions really are:

1) who judges a contract to be enforcable?

2) what tools of remedy are available?

3) how do you coerce a person to enfoce a decision?

I believe these all have a technical Solution;

The answers are :

a) Those with the most support from the community
b) Generally, these are civil matters, and payment is generally the most practical solution
c) Ostricization can be a powerful tool, and may be the only one that does not violate the TOS


I suggest the following system;

Parties contact a disinterested third party who rules and has their rulings enforced by a system of banlists in use by a wide number of users - preferably the ones with the best user experiences. This has the effect of forcing complience, payment, or permits a term of 'serving ones time'.

For example:

Alan and Betty have a dispute over a contract. Alan wishes to file suit against betty for non-performance and seeks damages in the amount of 400 l$. Alan Goes to Judge Jimbo's Judiciary Barn and registers a complaint.

The clerk issues a notice to all three parties (Alan, Betty and Jidge Jim) that their case will be heard at 5pm game time. All documents for the plaintiff must be provided at the time of filing.

5pm Comes, and each makes their case. The Judge listens and then, in due time, delivers a decision. The decision, case and penalty are all Public records and can be viewed online.

Lets assume that Alan is right. Judge Jim Agrees and orders betty to pay 400l$ plus a nominal court cost. Betty sticks her middle virtual finger up at the judge and says 'fuck you'.

Judge Jim then enters her name in the Enforcer(TM) software list.

The Enforcer then updates all the subscribers (supporters) of Judge Jim's regime of fairness and equity. Now Betty is Person Non Grata in ALL the parcels that participate in Judge Jim's justice project.

Jim sin't the only judge. There are several in-world. some Judges are not widely supported, so their decisions are not widely enforced. Others are almost universally supported, and their decisions carry the most weight. Maybe Jim goes on vacation for a month or so? Perhaps he decides only to hear cases that have been ajudicated once before, becoming kind of an appeals court.

Why would someone subscribe to such a List? That's easy ; Griefers.

It is one thing to totally ban someone from SL because they set off a few viral attacks on the system. It's another thing to ban someone for shooting 'guns' off in a crowded Club. surely it's better to permit the person a chance to reform, right?

So as the aggrieved party, the club owner could lodge a compalint and if the Judge finds for the complainant, increasing fines could be levied in the form of course costs. Clear records would be kept, and be publicly available. Eventually, a user with 30 griefing convictions would either have to BUY lots of lindens to keep up his habit, or would have to become extraordinarily useful to the community. Either one being far superior to simple elimination.