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Relative Anarchy - Pros and Cons

Jeffrey Gomez
Cubed™
Join date: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,522
04-12-2005 10:29
an·ar·chy

1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.


In this case, I'm not referring to the absense of any form of political authority - rather, #3.

What are your thoughts on the existance of no overarching, final say on what goes on in Second Life? By this, smaller authorities may still exist - I mean the lack of one final say over everything.

Suppose that LL did not have a final say over the capital distribution (read: sims and software), rules (griefing), or distribution of resources (economy) in Second Life. For that matter, no say over the metaverse we wish it to become. This is a definite possibility should we wish for LL to eventually release the software unto the masses, to exist as the latter.

If Second Life existed as the Internet does today, how would this be a good thing? A bad thing?

How would we be able to reign in on the problems of the Internet, as they relate to Second Life? Copyright protection? Legal litigation? Information dispersal? Would we still need government in some form to protect these interests, or would a relative form of "survival of the fittest" be able to uphold them?

How would an economy exist in such a system? Would it spiral rapidly out of control? How could it be protected?


Discuss.
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Shadow Weaver
Ancient
Join date: 13 Jan 2003
Posts: 2,808
04-12-2005 10:36
<<sits back and waits to see several brains explode in the background...
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daz Groshomme
Artist *nuff said*
Join date: 28 Feb 2005
Posts: 711
04-12-2005 11:02
My best guess is that each major portal (AOL, Yahoo etc) will offer an environment like SL, perhaps even purchasing a sim from LL (or a million of them), different places within the sim would lead to in-world shopping (using an internet currency, converted from local currency, like we do in SL) and portals to other sims. for example an Amazon.com sim and Old Navy sim (ugggh) OR just a direct link out of the sim onto a website.

The culture of avatars appears to be the next step up from the standard instant messenger culture and will probably be a premium service.

If I could do all my online things within the SL universe (privately for some of them) I would.
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Jamie Bergman
SL's Largest Distributor
Join date: 17 Feb 2005
Posts: 1,752
Don't Tread on Me
04-12-2005 11:53
No Player Run Government EVER!
Stone Taggart
Wolf Vagrant of Trades
Join date: 12 Mar 2006
Posts: 12
Social Evolotion
04-01-2006 22:29
I think that, inevitably, invariably, WERE there no lindens regulating anything and griefing were to run rampant, the people and culture in question would be forced to organize and mobilize THEMSELVES to a set of basic interpersonal standards, a ten-commandments if you will, of acceptable behavior, which COULD be enforced by in-game militaristic or peacekeeping organizations, or out of game hackers. Either way, Eventually we'd probably end up with what we have today: A loose regulating body that CAN override the worst situations if need-be, but most of the time seems to keep out of situations. I've never seen or heard of the Lindens coming down from the heavens and smiting some poor idiot for saying something inappropriate about The Big Guys In Charge--something I HAVE seen in other communities like Activeworlds and Furcadia.

All things considered, I'm kind of impressed with the society we have.
Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
04-02-2006 09:29
These lyrics were found in a spiral notebook found in a rental house that had been vacated by someone formerly associated with a griefer's group.*

Anarchy In The SL (The Griefer's Song)
As recorded by the Poseball Seburos

I am an antiLinden
I give more than I've been gettin'
Don't know what I want,
But I know how to get it
I wanna annoy passerby,
'Cause I wanna be anarchy

Anarchy here in SL
It's coming sometime -- oh hell.
I'm having some fun, stop a script from running
Your place in the sun is a scripted push gun
'Cause I wanna be anarchy
In Midnight City

How many ways to get what you want?
I use the best, I use the rest
I use the LSL, the rest of you can go to hell
'Cause I wanna be anarchy
It's the only way to be

Is this your virtual wife, and
Do SL problems cause you much strife?
Does it feel like you've been stabbed with a knife?
I thought it was my Second Life
Or some other virtual country
It said so on the marquee!
I wanna be anarchy
And I wanna be an anarchist
(I get pissed at lag!)

(Apologies to John Lydon et al.)

:D

P2

*Note: NOT REALLY. This is HUMOR, k?
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Psyra Extraordinaire
Corra Nacunda Chieftain
Join date: 24 Jul 2004
Posts: 1,533
04-02-2006 09:35
PRO:
Hoarding Gasoline!


CON:
Bandwagon Jumping!


(Oh, and before it spirals off into a political nightmare, I'm all for the impeachment of Dubya.... just not the signs in SL!)
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
04-02-2006 12:00
If Second Life existed as the Internet does today, how would this be a good thing? A bad thing?

It already does. Like a public toilet facility, it's as good or bad as we collectively make it.

How would we be able to reign in on the problems of the Internet, as they relate to Second Life? Copyright protection? Legal litigation? Information dispersal? Would we still need government in some form to protect these interests, or would a relative form of "survival of the fittest" be able to uphold them?


Ultimately this is a communications and commerce medium. As such, whatever provides the smoothest communications and commerce means will win the day.

Will there still be tragedies of the commons? You betcha.


How would an economy exist in such a system? Would it spiral rapidly out of control? How could it be protected?


The economy will be different, just as SL is today. Roads weren't much of a human need 10,000 years ago, but now they are indispensable for the economy. Same with our virtual world.


The real question is: how would our future advanced economy survive without the metaverse?



- - - - - -


With regard to government: there are many levels. National, State, County, City, and so forth.

We have player-run government on the multi-sim level now, and have had it for some time.

As such, there is no longer anarchy.
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Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
04-02-2006 15:12
From: Jeffrey Gomez

If Second Life existed as the Internet does today, how would this be a good thing? A bad thing?


It's an inevitable thing. Good or bad depends on the resources committed by the more civic-minded participants relative to the resources committed by those on the other end of the spectrum.

From: someone

How would we be able to reign in on the problems of the Internet, as they relate to Second Life? Copyright protection? Legal litigation? Information dispersal? Would we still need government in some form to protect these interests, or would a relative form of "survival of the fittest" be able to uphold them?


Having been toying with the problem of protecting texture-creators' IP rights here, I tend to favor individual rather than institutional approaches. For example, products that self destruct. : ) It might deter miscreants if the IP owner did random audits to catch and nuke unauthorized copies. Honest people have nothing to fear.

But that's a specific category of malefactor. Desmond has a more general characterization:
From: someone
Ultimately this is a communications and commerce medium. As such, whatever provides the smoothest communications and commerce means will win the day.
To the extent that this is indeed a communications medium we can stifle malefactors by refusing to supply them with bandwidth on valuable high signal-to-noise communications channels. For example, on an individual level I like the mute function. It lets an individual explicitly choose to pay no attention to a time-wasting troublemaker such as an IM-stalker. On a group level those who own a communications channel like a forum are under no obligation to provide costly bandwidth to everybody who wants it. It makes sense to ignore those with a track record of grabbing way more than their share of bandwidth to use for self promotion and denigrating whoever is on their hate-list. In both of these cases the owner of the bandwidth is making the decision based on first hand knowledge; it's not some overarching institution doing system-wide enforcement.


From: Jeffrey Gomez


How would an economy exist in such a system? Would it spiral rapidly out of control? How could it be protected?




Internet commerce is not spiralling out of control, but it's plagued by scammers and spammers eating up bandwidth at everybody else's expense.
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
04-09-2006 22:41
The OP's three definitions of anarchy are inaccurate. While it is true that the word is applied by many people to mean a lack of order, principle, or peace, the sense in which it would be applied to Second Life is as a political system - and that's called "anarchism". Anarchism as a political system has a long and interesting history, and it definitely has overarching principles, order, and governmental systems. It has laws and a system of judgement and punishment.

The difference is that administrative arrangements are ad hoc, flexible, and informally democratic, and are based on the idea that the least amount of administration is best, a very Jeffersonian point of view. The system is built on carefully emended individual rights and privileges, rather than more common principles such as the state's right to exist, the protection of unequal property and the privileges it gives to certain elements in a society, or the will of the majority.

Unfortunately, applying anarchism to Second Life would likely mean heavy modification of laissez faire capitalism that seems to dominate here. And I don't think that's likely. However, there are many flavors of anarchism, and possibly one might fit.

But then what do I know? I'm new.
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
04-18-2006 13:59
From: Crissaegrim Clutterbuck

But then what do I know? I'm new.


Welcome, newcomer. : ) Your *glowing* account of anarchism sounds like an idealized description. Very attractive in theory, but what happens when people try to implement it by codifying the principles? And how does the codified system work in practice?

In my opinion these ideal systems of government tend to be undermined during the process of codifying them into precisely specified documents. Bias on the part of well-intentioned people, self interest and expediency may distort the original intent. Essential chunks of description may be left out because everyone assumes those things as part of the underlying context. Practical application of the codified system may hit obstacles such as different interpretations of the same words and phrases. If the codified system is modified to help overcome these practical obstacles it may suffer further distortions. If it is unmodifiable it may be relegated to the scrapheap.

I'm mulling over this stuff after trying to follow the current conflict in Neualtenburg over modifying the fundamental powers of the SC, one branch of their tripartite model government. An astonishing amount of energy is being spent by knowledgeable people trying to improve a system that matters greatly to them all. However they each see the challenges differently, and see the downside of competing proposals differently. Read the Neualtenburg group forum to see all the various scenarios of doom!

You might want to join the Law Society if you're interested in analysing various models of governance being used in SL. This is a non-partisan non-commercial research group. Frank Lardner's original case study of Neualtenburg is among the studies available for reading and commentary by anyone, not just Law Society members. I recall reading his study, reading the source documents on the Neualtenburg website, then declaring that the SC was an elite. For some reason I thought this wouldn't be too much trouble to fix....

Anyhow you're invited to elaborate on your idealized depiction of anarchism. If there's any way to make that idealized system work, you'd get a lot of support from people in SL.
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
04-21-2006 09:59
From: Traxx Hathor
Welcome, newcomer. : ) Your *glowing* account of anarchism sounds like an idealized description. Very attractive in theory.... Anyhow you're invited to elaborate on your idealized depiction of anarchism. If there's any way to make that idealized system work, you'd get a lot of support from people in SL.


Actually, I'm not an anarchist, nor do I believe it's a practical solution in real life, nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently....

I do believe, however, that definitions are important, unless you're just talkin' trash. Anarchy and anarchism are two different concepts, and I think the second is the one that might apply in some way to Second Life - merely because it's a virtual world with virtual political dynamics based on very simplistic needs.

Been through the N-burg literature and read Lardner's stuff. Interesting but problematic. If that's the extent of political experimentation and commentary in SL, however, there's a lot more that might be tried. If people are willing - and I don't get the sense that they are. No offense, just sayin'.

Hope that cleared it up. :)
Pelanor Eldrich
Let's make a deal...
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 267
What other organizational approaches would you try?
05-01-2006 16:42
Just curious, what other approches would you try? Which ones do you think might work? Sometimes I think SL is like Planet of the Apes with human artisans and trading. Naturally the Lindens are the Apes...I dunno...
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
05-02-2006 11:39
From: Pelanor Eldrich
Just curious, what other approches would you try? Which ones do you think might work? Sometimes I think SL is like Planet of the Apes with human artisans and trading. Naturally the Lindens are the Apes...I dunno...


A thought provoking question, Pelanor. Here's my answer:

First I'd do my homework studying existing initiatives, identify the fundamental make-or-break requirements, then base the new approach on solutions to those requirements. I would not start off with a big happyfest discussing the sim theme or some other easy aspect, then try to tack on the hard things like a viable business plan. Here are a few points I'd mention to anyone considering a new inititative of this type.

1. Personnel -- the number one reason for success or failure. I learned this in my first project managment experience as a computer science undergrad. Thrilled to get extra people into my group I didn't actually check to see if they were the type who contribute. I was lucky -- the extras were merely lazy, not ego-driven types.

2. Business plan -- important for non-profit initiatives too, if you want to cover tier, or expect certain tasks to be done by volunteer labor. In Neualtenburg I notice a wealth of ideas and energy expended in improving the model government...and, oh yes, we have to get more commerce going here too.... Hey, how bout a company to help clients through the bureacracy! ; )

In Desmond's case he's kindly provided us with a snapshot on the economics of his enterprise, including an assertation to the effect that customer service eats you alive. Those of us who analyse how SL enterprises work in practice are indebted to the honest rental operators who make the negatives known too.

3. Dispute resolution mechanisms. This deserves a dissertation or two. In SL the Law Society group forum is helpful as a non-partisan, non-commercial repository of case studies on various models of governance tried here. For example you can find the original rules for the DarkWood community (extant for 3 years, and still going strong). Anyone can read the documented approaches, ask around to see how they work in practice, then combine aspects to suit a particular project. Constructive commentary is encouraged. In my opinion all these studies point to dispute resolution as a major stumbling block for initiatives of this type, and enforcement as the key missing piece of the puzzle.

The above list of pointers might look like a nay-sayer's list of 'reasons why new proposal X is doomed to fail', but think of them as categories for use in the requirements analysis stage of the new project. If a project participant is trying to gather support for his bright idea in some easy category such as architectural style, ask that person to solve one of the hard ones first. Enforcement, for example.

For what it's worth I find it helpful to consider a proposal as an abstract problem rather than a model of existing RL systems. Let's look at enforcement. In RL there are multiple levels of law and social norms with enforcement power sufficient to alter behavior of members within a given community. That's not very helpful for SL. People can call their group a law enforcement agency or model a RL judiciary, but hmm...it's kinda toothless.

In contrast consider some SL-specific solution based on an abstraction of the problem. Treating SL as a MMORP game designer might, we think in terms of the motivational structure of participants. We note where SL lies on the spectrum from carrots to sticks, and design our system to be carrot-heavy. In other words, design our system from the ground up as a flow of benefits/rewards, but bad behavior chokes off the flow to the miscreant.

In similar fashion abstract the other critical problems, and insist on a coherent solution to the aggregate before proceeding to the easy categories like deciding on the architecture or sim layout or logo.

Addendum: by 'insist on' I mean the investors do the insisting, and non-investor stakeholders who will get the benefit of seeing their own ideas implemented shoulder the responsibility of providing solutions to the hard problems.
Pelanor Eldrich
Let's make a deal...
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 267
This is fascinating...
05-04-2006 13:46
I'd like to do some background reading an maybe engineer a thought experiment to handle within a single sim in SL:

-Binding conflict resolution
-Legal and contractual enforcement
-IP protection for individuals and the collective
-Compensation for work
-Business plan to finance/grow the structure
-Maximizing positive reinforcement (as opposed to punishment) as a behavioral motivator
-Structure change process (optional...democratic, dictatorial, etc...)

I think working backwards from what is possible in SL and then abstracting the minimum required to make the above work is the way to go. RL is not always the best guide, it's simply the most familiar set of solutions which we can't usually avail ourselves of due to the limits of SL.

Changes in SL version functionality can drastically alter solutions to the above. SL enhacements, I hope, would allow simplification of solutions to the above problems.

I agree that architecture, theme, named roles are basically the last and easiest thing to worry about. They are entirely trivial except as a marketing tool and mnemonic for new participants.
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
05-04-2006 14:52
That's a good comprehensive list. Your idea of a thought experiment sounds reasonable. I'd also be comfortable participating in a real experiment. The research topic of self-organizing jurisdictions in a virtual world sounds like a winner. : )
Ferren Xia
Registered User
Join date: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 77
05-04-2006 19:13
Several interesting points for discussion throughout this thread.

From the initial posts regardless the SL infrastructure becoming a background utility, like the Internet, this would likely lead to a few large open environments, with other organizations, like Yahoo, providing the control framework that LL provides now, and a number of smaller communities, likely with very restricted access or membership. The SL equivalent of a private network (VPN) operating within the Internet.

There would be some interesting commercial possibilities though. If LL licensed a standalone package of software and database, someone would have to be available to do database support and maintenance functions to keep things working within the smaller environment. That might spawn a whole range of SL product support organizations, or perhaps LL would monopolize that as a revenue opportunity.

The thought experiment suggested by Pelanor is one way to investigate the topics raised by Traxx, but thought experiments seldom produce unexpected results. Something in SL operating as a real exeriment would be a better test.

The stronger the carrot factor, the more impact sanctions such as removal or banning would have. The key question would be how to create a sim that is such a draw, with so many people wanting to be there or take part. The higher the carrot factor in terms of attraction, the higher the stick factor. It often is not so much a balance between carrots and sticks (like some zero-sum situation), but that the two rise in parallel.

So any suggestions on what might make a sim so very attractive?
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-06-2006 10:45
(1) sex
(2) vicarious emotional drama
(3) money
(4) (safe) violence
....
....
....
....
....
(5) intellectual challenge
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
05-06-2006 14:06
From: Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
(1) sex
(2) vicarious emotional drama
(3) money
(4) (safe) violence
....
....
....
....
....
(5) intellectual challenge


Couldn't you find a tinier font for point #5, Crissaegrim? : P

Actually you get #5 for free when you're doing the analytical problemsolving for one or more of the others. Point #3 on your list looks like a solid choice. You'd want a vibrant economy anyhow, so why not think of participation in its benefits as a carrot?

One item I'd add to your list is creative self-expression. As a professional architect in SL I see this motivating factor a lot. For example I was pulled in to help with a reorg on one sim where multiple stakeholders were used to vying with each other to be the builder for the club, the builder for the store, etc. Superficially it looked like kids arguing about who gets the good toys, but there were deep motivations involved.

It's just speculation, but I felt that each of those individuals wanted to stake out a piece of turf to transform into a showpiece so that the others would marvel at his creations. There was no analysis of the sim's business plan or urban planning principles such as preserving view corridors, just 'I want a chance to shine.' It's an interesting motivator, and appears to be front and center in SL -- much more so than in typical RL neighborhoods, where our properties are investments, so enhancing resale value will trump unfettered self expression.

From: Ferren Xia
The stronger the carrot factor, the more impact sanctions such as removal or banning would have. The key question would be how to create a sim that is such a draw, with so many people wanting to be there or take part. The higher the carrot factor in terms of attraction, the higher the stick factor. It often is not so much a balance between carrots and sticks (like some zero-sum situation), but that the two rise in parallel.



Ferren, I find myself reading this paragraph two ways, but I think you're talking about a single type of benefit/reward, and you're claiming that restricting a participant's access to it is equivalent to having a stick as far as your ability to influence actual behavior. Fair enough. However your point about '...not so much a balance between carrots and sticks (like some zero-sum situation)...' looks applicable to a system with multiple types of benefits/rewards and disincentives. Zero-sum games are just plain annoying! The suggestion that we can do better sounds good to me.
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-07-2006 08:28
Well, my point was that 3 of the first 4, at least, would counterbalance the 5th - and drive away certain kinds of people that you might want to attract. So it's a nasty situation.

On "money" - believe it or not, a fair number of people actually might not be so interested in that, and might find the fetish-ization of that quality a reason not to participate. For myself, I'm fascinated with the dynamics of a healthy economy but I'm not so much interested in making money, nor am I especially interested in watching a virtual economy ape the real world western economies to the nth degree.
Traxx Hathor
Architect
Join date: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 422
05-07-2006 08:51
Fair enough. How does one de-fetishize money, and still have a vibrant economy for a sim or group of sims?
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-07-2006 09:01
Off the top of my head, without much thought, I'm afraid (it's Sunday morning, and the coffee is just kicking in) -

- redefine economic value
- free the base value from land, if possible
- redefine currency and what passes for commodities exchange rates
- experiment beyond modeling free market capitalism (not necessarily reject it, just offer alternatives and perhaps settle on the one that flourishes)
- experiment beyond assumptions about individualism and worth built into the environment

Of course, nearly all of these are "built into the environment" by LL. So I see a lot of the problem being that efforts to innovate are largely diverted, subsumed, and destroyed by the virtual structure of the game/world/thing itself.
Ferren Xia
Registered User
Join date: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 77
05-07-2006 10:40
Crissaegrim:

If we're going to discuss this at a general level, economic value systems break down into two types: those where value is arrived at through independent transactions of multiple individuals, and those where value is assigned arbitrarily in a top-down manner.

The structure of SL favors the former only because individuals are free to act however they wish in participating economically. Unlike RL, they don't even have to provide necessities of existence, but can float freely through the world.

As you move away from the free transactions of individuals, more and more levels of coercion are required, and SL is very lacking in that aspect.

Or do you have something else entirely in mind?
Crissaegrim Clutterbuck
Dancing Martian Warlord
Join date: 9 Apr 2006
Posts: 277
05-08-2006 10:22
From: Ferren Xia
... economic value systems break down into two types: those where value is arrived at through independent transactions of multiple individuals, and those where value is assigned arbitrarily in a top-down manner.


I'm not sure why you're limiting the typology to just the two best-known present-day examples. There are many more that have been seriously discussed and attempted: for example - gift economies based on assigned ethical values, the intellectual economies of modern scientific exchange and cooperation, so-called "tribal economies" where value is assigned democratically from the bottom up, broad oligopolic economies where value is a careful combination of negotiated and competitive outcomes, and the most common kind of system in the world today - the mixed economy, wherein limited independent competition and transaction occurs in a system loosely directed an overarching institution. (These last two examples describe the American economy, the global economy, and the general economy of Second Life.)

There are many more examples, btw.

From: Ferren Xia
The structure of SL favors the former only because individuals are free to act however they wish in participating economically.


Actually, no. This is a conceit of many residents in SL, but these conditions do not exist here. The economy is structured, directed, and regulated by LL, and residents are granted certain limited liberties within that structure. As such, SL mimics current RL economic paradigms.

From: Ferren Xia
As you move away from the free transactions of individuals, more and more levels of coercion are required, and SL is very lacking in that aspect.


Transactions, of course, are never entirely free - and are always subject to coercion. We're not speaking of an artificial gemeinschaft/gesellschaft dichotomy here, but a question of degrees and preferences. Which is exactly my point - such statement as the ones quoted above artificially limit the possible into something that conforms with personal preferences. Nothing "free" about that. Virtual worlds are, by definition, experimental because of the very characteristics you mention - "flying free" and unsubjected to physical deprivation. To characterize them by rules or "common sense" is to subject them to an artificially-induced, top-down order that is not inevitable, but represents a choice. And that may be fine, as long as everyone understands what is happening.

From: Ferren Xia
Or do you have something else entirely in mind?


No. I'm saying there's a wide range of possibilities that exist, have been discussed, and often have been attempted. To merely restrict oneself to the narrow range of present-day western economic ideologies - both those that are real, and those imagined for self-serving purposes - does no justice to the potential of a "place" like Second Life. This thread speaks of turning imagination and creativity into profit. Wonderful. Why hobble such initiatives with commonplace economic assumptions that are often in error?
Pelanor Eldrich
Let's make a deal...
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 267
BTW did you guys do a case study on Caledon?
05-08-2006 10:59
It seems to be a real up and comer.
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