Philip Linden Says NO to Player Government

That is correct. Philip uses the word "like" because he is using an analogy. Every concept in our virtual world has an analogous real-world counterpart. I described it in a previous thread but I'll touch on it again, as it's such an important concept.

I'll start first with other analogies:

1. The Linden dollar is a virtual currency that is like real money in that it can be earned and spent.
   
2. The virtual structures we put our stuff in are like real homes in that they are filled with furniture and art.
   
3. Our avatars are virtual humans that are like real humans in that they share similar forms.
   
4. The virtual land that we purchase is like real land in that we walk on it and build homes on it.
   
5. LL is a virtual "federal" government in that it encapsulates smaller regional governments like the U.S. federal government encapsulates state governments.
   

The key to remember is that there are two worlds, a real world and a virtual world. In the real world LL is a corporation. In the virtual world the Lindens are a government. In the real world the Neualtenburg Projekt is a nonprofit cooperative. In the virtual world it is a democratic republic.

~Ulrika~

Just one correction in your wording to follow the logic of the rest of your post.

***LL is a "LIKE" a RL "federal" government in that it encapsulates smaller regional governments.***

This does not mean that LL "IS" a federal government just like your other examples do not mean that an avatar "IS" a human being or that virtual land "IS" real land etc...

LL is not a federal government, this description is limiting and misleading. LL is a for profit corporation that provides a service for a fee to a list of paying subscribers. There really isn't any need to confuse the issue by claiming somehow that it "IS" a federal government.

I will agree that it is "LIKE" a federal government as a metaphor and for semantics but do not agree that it "IS" a federal government.

The Linden oligarchy exists in the same way that the U.S. Federal Government exists. They are both absolutely real. It's just that one exists in the real world and the other exists in the virtual world. Analogies allow us to the understand our virtual world in terms of the real world.

So Philip was using the analogy, that in RL the U.S. Federal Government encapsulates U.S. State governments just like the Linden Oligarchy encapsulates all player-run governments. It's that simple.

If you don't like the semantics, take it up with Philip.

~Ulrika~

I am perfectly ok with the semantics from Phillip; I disagree with your interpretation. You are reading way too much into this. My description of LL is much more accurate than yours IMO.

LL is not a government, it is a for profit corporation and to forget that fact is to have a very limited understanding about why they make the decisions that they make. Calling it a government is fine if you want to "role-play" and do so but that is not what it is.

The simple fact is that Phillip did not say that LL "WAS" a federal government; he said it was "LIKE" a federal government. If you don't like that maybe you need to take it up with Phillip.

Jesus, Billy. Do you have no capacity for discussing abstract concepts using negotiated analogies? Did you even understand that previous sentence?

(edited)

~Ulrika~

And I thought you might actually be capable of having an adult conversation without resorting to flaming me just because I disagree with you. Guess I was wrong. You just can't control yourself Ulrika and it is hilarious to watch you self-destruct.

We can all see that when you disagree with me you attempt to deflect the conversation something else by personally attacking me. That is very big of you. You just can't stand to be wrong can you? ROFL

Personally attacking someone simply because they disagree with you instantly devalues any point you may have had. WTG and ty for that. What you don't seem to grasp is that this obsessive-compulsive nature has blinded you to the fact that as a result almost nobody takes you seriously anymore.

Everyone knows that you think you are smarter than the rest of us Ulrika, the problem is that nobody believes you. When will you get it that your personal attacks mean absolutely nothing to me and make you look like trailer trash. Quit with the petty, childish posts and maybe someone will take you seriously.

LL is a FOR PROFIT CORPORATION, not a friggin federal government. Get a clue, get a life, grow up, get over it.

Oh, and I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology from you. I do not think that you have the ability in you to recognize that you are not behaving appropriately. I will simply await your next flame. You are sooo predictable.

That is correct. In the real world LL is a for profit corporation and in the virtual world the Lindens are a government. There are two worlds, one real and one virtual. You've identified their real role, now focus on their virtual role.

1. In the real world LL accepts monthly payments in US$. Business.
   
2. In the virtual world the Lindens are not allowed to accept L$ or participate in land speculation. Government.
   
3. In the real world LL bills us montly. Business.
   
4. In the virtual world the Lindens give us weekly stipends. Government.
   
5. In the real world LL engages in lots of PR to advertise their game.
   
6. In the virtual world the Lindens hold town hall meetings with citizens.
   

Do you understand that there are two worlds, one real and one virtual? Do you understand that the Lindens are like ("like" signifies the presence of an anlogy) a federal government in that they encapsulate smaller governments just like in RL? Do you understand that there is one Linden "coin" that has corporation on one side and government on the other?

~Ulrika~

Ahem, nope… they sell every lot that comes online, some for US$, some for Lindens. Every auction is land speculation. Anyhoo… this is the role of creator & facilitator of a game, not a government.



This also does not make LL a government. Where in the definition of a government does it say that they give out stipends? This again is the roll of creator & facilitator of a game.


Just because they choose to call it a “town hall” in no way makes LL a government. It is simply an analogy.



I understand the analogy and even agreed that it was one. You on the other hand do not believe it is an analogy, you believe that LL “IS” in fact a federal government. Read your own posts.


LL “IS” the federal govt. that is what you said when Phillip said it is “LIKE” a federal govt.


Again, LL “IS” a federal govt, not is “like” a federal govt.


This is explanatory. You believe that LL “IS” a federal government yet you contradict yourself above by saying, “the Lindens are like ("like" signifies the presence of an anlogy) a federal government”.

Read what I already said my dear. I am the one that agreed with the analogy. You want to somehow say that because the analogy fits that it makes it true that LL “IS” a federal government which is not true.

To use your logic, a dog is “like” a wolf therefore a dog “IS” a wolf. Pepsi is “LIKE” Coca-Cola therefore Pepsi “IS” Coca-Cola. It doesn’t work. LL is “LIKE” a federal government, it “IS” not a federal government.

Calling LL a federal government is “your” definition. Calling any landowner a Governor over his own land is semantics too, not reality. You seem to think that SL revolves around some kind of governmental theory or application of such when the fact is that a very very small minute proportion of the SL population believe this to be true. I believe that SL is a game and that LL is simply the creator and facilitator of the game.

However, I have no problem whatsoever the way you want to play the game. If you want to role-play and pretend that LL is the federal government, it’s ok with me.

Ah. I see. It's not the analogy that bothers you it's the use of the word "is". Well you're not going to like the rest of this post at all.

The Lindens are by definition a true federal government in our virtual world. This can be seen clearly by looking at the definition of the word "federal".


The Lindens are a federal government in that they are the central authority but give limited residuary powers to constituent territorial units. BAM! By definition. I don't even have to argue that one.


Nomenclature
Now that the Lindens have established themselves as a federal government and said that player-run governments will be integrated as constituents, we should clarify terminology. I suggest the following conventions:

1. When discussing LL as a company, one should describe them as "LL" or "Linden Labs".
   
2. When discussing the Lindens as a government, one should call them "the Lindens".
   
3. Linden Labs is a start-up corporation.
   
4. The Lindens are a federal corporatist oligarchy.
   

It's fascinating to watch the march of understanding since the inception of this forum.

~Ulrika~

wow...I hope you guys are having fun here. I know one difference between RL and SL...I can always get out of SL...but who is going to beam me up from RL?

hmm where do you get philip lindens email addy from anyways? ive tried.. but can find it anywhere..

Wow, some people seem to have a difficult grasping of what analogies are.

Let's add a new one. Would you say that sims with their prim restrictions are like web hosting with their MByte space and GByte traffic restrictions, and agree that Linden Lab (the corporation) is a 3D content hosting provider?

Anyway, I've re-read the words of Philip (he seemed to be very careful on his wording), and it looks like he does master the art of analogies However, Ulrika, I disagree. The Lindens are not a "federal government", but much more a theocracy like the Church of Rome during the Middle Ages. Meaning, if you wanted to be King, you had to pay tribute to the Pope The point being, local governments appearing in SL will not "willingly surrender" individual sovereignty to the central government (the Lindens). No, they're forced to. They must. There is no other choice for them. Furthermore, law, as coming from the words of the Lindens, is holy and dogmatic. Most heretics are therefore stamped out and excommunicated (meaning, expelled from SL). Isn't it so?

Pope Philip even speaks ex cathedra when he's putting on his CEO hat. The analogy can be stretched further and further if you wish Like the question of dogmas handed out by the Lindens (the ToS); the cerimonies of initiation that new Lindens have to go through; Liaisons, our in-world "Angels" that help us out (I wonder if the Mentors and Instructors and Greeters are some sort of priesthood or so...?); the special "heavens" the Lindens go to, when they want to discuss in-world (invisible, private sims); they have been given mystery powers, like The Power of Immediate Teleportation, or The Power of Viewing a Wireframed World, or The Power of Ultimate Sim Reboot. They even dress out of taste and use ugly avatars; I wonder if that comes from an oath they have to swear? ("thou shalt not have beautiful avatars, as these will be coveted by envious eyes, as well as promoting thy vanity"

Actually, when Neualtenburg was first created, we had to get some help from Bishop Haney Linden, pay tribute to him, and generally show our willingness to hear and obey the Word of Linden. In return, they gave us our blessing. Aye, verily, we even planned to honour Bishop Haney with a statue

LL, a federal government? Certainly not All hail His Holiness, the Pope Philip I

- Sister Gwyneth of the Order of Helpful Mentors

Yes, I agree, Gwyn. LL is like the Catholic Church. There are saints, too -- the older FIC players and the Mentors and so on -- there is the selling of indulgences -- having to buy textures LOL -- or whatever the analogy will be. The granting of absolution after punishment -- there are a host of analogies, really. The one big difference is they don't seem to interfere in your sex lives though

The Lindens are a little bit like bishops of this or that district, that develop different interpretations of the Faith. For example, I'm still reeling from Andrew Linden's very troublesom post in the thread about "tekkie wikis" -- it means this Catholic Church has got some really intense doctrinal issues at hand.

Sweet Moses. *slaps forehead*

McDonalds does not exist in the virtual world. That's what this whole conversation is about. It's about a single entity having two different roles, one in the virtual world and another in the real world.

I have no more patience for you. End of discussion.

~Ulrika~

I love this! Of course that's what they are. Linden Labs (the corporation) is a 3D content hosting provider!

(Ulrika puts the idea in her pocket and scurries away.)

Don't forget that the churches themselves are political organizations. The trick to demonstrating that the church analogy is superior to the political analogy is by finding things the Lindens (virtual world) share exclusively with the Church.

I do see your analogy but many of these are political and hierarchical constructs that are present in an oligarchy: dogmas, initiations, sequestered meetings, and so on. I think where the analogies shine is in discussing the superhuman abilities that the Lindens posses. Although, when you think about it, members of the church do not have special powers. In that sense they would be less like the church and more like the gods of Greek mythology.

Don't forget how Haney just vanished. To this day we have no idea where he went. In real life we know that his employment ended. In the virtual world it looks like he was "disappeared" by a government -- no explanation, no accountability, no right to know. To me that is a telling sign that the Lindens are a true oligarchy.

(What is the the political structure of a church anyway? Is it an autocracy, oligarchy, or democratic oligarchy? Hmm)

~Ulrika~

The McDonalds analogy is an example of how your analogy fails miserably. You loose, I win!!! YAY!!! End of discussion.

I am happy that you slapped your forhead btw, I have been wanting to do that for quite some time! winks



I'll bet that it hurts when you look back and see that you agree with me!!! haha



I love Gwyneth & Prokofy's posts btw and agree with them.

It's spelled "lose". The word "loose" is what I'd describe that marble-sized brain rolling around your head as.

~Ulrika~

LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSEEEEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*mee mackes a L on mi fourhead*

Again resorting to childish tactics when you see that you are beaten. TY for fulfilling my prophecy so easily. Take those hollow words of yours and go away already. You are done with me… remember. Please mean what you say for once in your life.

*laffing REALLLLLLYYY hard at U now*

TY for making my night!!!!

Oh Ulrika, somebody forgot to tell you that I just love playing spelling police whenever some jerk does it to me. Observe:


Hmm indeed. Nice double usage of the word “the”.


Slaps should have been capitalized.


This is a fragment, next time try, “This is the end of the discussion”.


Again a fragment, you seem to like these. By definition what? “By definition.” By itself is not a sentence.


It should be “I” continue, not me.


haha… Analogies allow us to “the” understand ay?


It should be “analogy that” or “analogy, which”. Improper comma usage.


Just what the hell is “Basket Ball” anyways? It’s basketball TYVM.

This is fun. These are the mistakes you have made in this thread alone. Shall I go on?

How sad that someone who “THINKS” she is smarter than everyone else does not use her wit to debate but resorts to personally attacking anyone who disagrees with her.

Note to Ulrika, you aren’t perfect and I am happy to be the one to point it out to you. Deal with it! You live in a glass house Ulrika, you shouldn’t throw stones.

As this discussion has dissolved into semantical attacks, I'm closing it. Please feel free to continue this discussion in another thread (without the personal attacks).