Meritocracies

Do you feel that there is a difference in the quality and personality of a self-selected meritocracy versus an externally selected meritocracy?

~Ulrika~

In most cases.

This thread is going to be so sexy that it will give Dr. Ruth a migraine

Unless the methods for selection are exactly the same, they would have to be.

I prefer Meritos-Ergocracy.

I prefer Meritos-Ergocracy.

I prefer Meritos-Ergocracy.

I prefer Meritos-Ergocracy.

Yes.

Yes. the self selected meritocracy will often be blinded by the human foibles that we all have. The external one allows all voters to judge who is best for themselves.

A properly formed meritocracy has objective criteria for selection. Self-selected vs. externally selected shouldn't matter unless the selection process is subjective and thus flawed.

This is actually a picture of Uri Geller's mother.

I don't think it's possible to have a real meritocracy that is entirely one or the other. Someone who self-selects will fail if they can't win the confidence of others. Someone who is picked by others will fail if they don't personally think they can do the job.

I do think there is a difference in personality though. A society geared towards other-selecting would tend to be more static and bureaucratic. A society geared towards self-selecting would tend to be more entreprenurial.

Very correct. Basing of a subjective system, you can have as many or more idiots externally than those internally. The usual advantage of an external selection process is that the blame for mistakes can be spread around to more people, or more usually, ignored in the fashion of the emporers new clothes.

But who defines the objective process and puts in the criteria for making a proper selection? obviously back to the same flawed humans, possibly rendering even an objective process subject to subjectiveness. The advantage though, is that an objective process can be modified, the rules re-written as it were, to compensate for changes in the environment surrounding the selection.

If say we were looking to advance or include a scripter. If we have more than one to look at we have to compare they skills to see who is the more meritous. But it's rare that the objective of one persons work would exactly resemble that of another. So a common standard needs to evolve, and the scripter would have to conform to this standard, and the most succesful one at conforming would have a higher merit rating. (standards being a college degree or technical certification).

This is a little more difficult when it comes to subjective fields though. Architects, scripters, graphic application users can all be tested on their familiarity with their tools. But what about artists, designers, the artistic aspects of the aforementioned professions of architect and scripter? There we are back in the 'eye of the beholder' category. In such cases, if you had to decide between more than one, this would be where your question of meritocracy would come in.

Do you go with the external, majority rules, voting to see who gets their own gallery showing, or do you go with an internal committee, who may be more educated in the style or theme of the art they want to represent at the showing? I would argue that would be subjective to the person who had to make that decision. There is no criteria, except experience, that would say which is better. If you have a community of well educated, knowledgable patrons, I would say an external polling. If you have a commitee of a specialized thematic gallery, I would say a decision by them.

Perhaps the best compromise would be a combination of both. An initial polling of the external commitee with the final applicants to be determined by an internal commitee. hmm, yes, I think I'll go with that one.

Just want to make sure of the water quality before I jump in - Is this a reference to the Lindens' "chosen view-few"?

I emailed a bunch of stuff to Kendra about this when we talked of AC reform. It's tried and true, it works, and I think it fits your AC objectives.

I know it works, Pel --I invented the Artisanal Branch of your city! It's also the system I am using in Port Neualtenburg

I'd love to see how that turns out. Over here in Neufreidstadt we've had a bit of an identity problem with our AC. Is it an AC (guild style), a chamber of commerce, or an admin/executive branch or some combination? We're working on finding answers to that.

The problem with your Artisinal Branch is that your Government has lamed it.
It was designed to be the strongest branch of the Government because it is the only branch of Government that is truly of The People. Literally any citizen was able (and encouraged) to join the Guild. Is that still the case?

Port Neualtenburg operates as a city which is entirely "Guild" based. Citizenry is open enrollment with a heirarchic structure of citizenry based on output of work, moneys or services brought into the city economy, and general level of involvement in public works.

There are three classes.

Meisters. (who recieve a store, housing and 250 prims for 10% commision of sales, though they must be generating a minimum income of 2500L a week -so 250L a week minimum to the City)

Journeymen (who recieve a wagon to display their wares and 50 prims for a straight 10% commision of sales. no minimum. You sell nothing you pay nothing)

There are also apprentices, who may partake in classes offered in our workshops. They pay no taxes to the City, but are asked to help out as they can.

Lastly --there are simply Projekt members, who are citizens of Port Neualtenburg, supporters, sponsors or even just tourists.

There is no rent in Port Neualtenburg. Just commision of sales. It is designed to be affordable to all levels of citizen no matter their level of success.

Very nice, an affordable mall. Great idea. Capitalism works!

I was neither asked nor 'encouraged" to join the Artisinal Branch for a long time after joining Neualtenburg.

Just Sayin.

I think you make a really good point about the problem between the Guild and the rest of the old Neualtenburg government though. It is, and always has been one of the chief sources of conflict in the system. (I mean that in a literal way, not as an insult)

For instance, they way you have the Guild set-up in the new Port Neualtenburg, it *is* the government and there seems no need for any more than that in your system. Whereas in Neufreistadt on the other hand, we are sometimes considering future situations where the power of the Guild might have to be diminished in order to solve this self same conflict between the Guild structure and the Government structure.

Looking back on it now, I would say that the old Neualtenburg would have been better off in an either/or situation with regards the Guild rather than trying to attach it to the planned government as the third branch.

Or conversely, if the Guild idea was first, it seems like it was a mistake to think that stitching the other two branches on to it would improve the structure or at least not cause some kind of major power conflict.

As I see it, this is because the Guild either contains a complete socio-economic model and control structure within itself (your current setup), and thus has no need for anything else, or it is merely an organising structure for the local "building team" with no real purpose beyond that.

In regards Neufreistadt, if the guild is "real" like the medieval ones, then it sort of is (or should be), the de-facto government. On the other hand if its just a cute metaphor for the building team, then it probably should not have the financial and economic control it has.

I wouldn't call it a capitalist model at all. It's near Feudalist with Socialist overtones in a Mercantile setting.

It's also far more than a mall, as it's designed as a living artist's community that works together as a contracting team. No member is asked to contribute to the City more than they can afford.

To refer to it as a Mall would be incorrect.

What you may not have picked up on is that the next 2 phases of The Neualtenburg Projekt will also be Governments modeled on each of the remaining branches of the original Neualtenburg founding documents.

Phase IV -Colonial Neualtenburg (for which land has already been procured) will be a Representative Democracy.

Phase V - The Synod , which will essentially be an advisory think tank on virtual Governments and eventually serve as the mediating board for issues of self governance in Phases III and beyond.

The reasons for The Guild being set up as the strongest of the three branches in the old Anzere system was to ensure that the Government would be "of The People" as opoosed to the Government being a ruling body.


and uhm --Dianne --you were a Meister in the Guild, at least I had considered you as such and was under the impression that you knew that. I am fairly certain when we first met I told you that based on your skill set there was no need for any "apprenticeship".

-in any event, you became one the moment you opened up "Black" within the City walls.

Sure, it shouldn't matter. However, until the Unbiased Robot Overlords are in charge, the naturally flawed humans doing the selecting will botch the whole thing. There is always a difference in self-evaluation and external evaluation. The questions would only be how large that difference might be.


LONG LIVE THE URO!

Well my point was that I wasn't told anything or encouraged in any way for a long time previous to that conversation, but I seriously am sick and tired of all this arguing and don't really care.

That's one of the nice differences about Neufreistadt and the new forums we have is that there is way less arguing and even some supportive discussion and positive thoughts. People are just more willing to admit they are wrong and far less personally attached to things. The very worst thing to me about the old Neualtenburg was the constant negativity and personal attacks. All that "this is mine," and "your completely wrong!" kind of stuff. It's just so wearing on the psyche.

Good luck on the multiple future phases, I wish you well in your endeavors. I do think what you are doing now in Port Neualtenburg is both more real and more valuable than any of your associates ideas for "governments" and governmental theory. I guess that's what I really wanted to say.

Also if you guys ever get that "think tank" together, remember that (ironically), some of the best candidates for it would be your old enemies in Neufreistadt.

It certainly wouldn't have much credibility if they were not included.