I object to having my thread moved into the Forum I wanted to keep from being formed.

Moot Point

It looks like all the topics that conform to this forum sticky are being moved over here.

I do find it interesting that forum was even created, but now that it is here, Jeska is just doing her job moving topics around.

Im sure this forum will be popular for awhile, since its new, but I really wonder if in the long run the topics will be more valuable over here or just simply ignored because its no longer a general concern.

I was literally in the act of posting something about residential group formation on sims when I saw my thread literally hijacked over into this new ghetto.

OK, I guess we figured out now what kind of government we already have.

It's doubtful it was created solely for Ulrika. You give her far too much credit (sorry Ulrika! ).

There are plenty of people that would like to have a place to discuss the pro's and con's of various types of governing bodies in SL. Additionally, who's to say that a Polysci group isn't as valuable as Building, Scripting, etc. At least we won't have to view them on the General board anymore.

Jeska did her job - you just didn't like it. It was fair, as your post was about.. drumroll please... Government. See how that works?

Thanks Jeska for doing your job and placing it where it should be. I think this forum will be a great place to discuss all manners of 'government'.

Yes, Pathfinder is turning out to be a surprising ineffective forum moderator.

Nope. It's soley based on a minority's whine and gripe. (wah wah) I still stand behind my own thoughts I will never ever recognize anything other than what LL provides. Even if its a zoned sim. I can't get banned for creating something that I think is a creative idea that doesn't conform to another players ideals. Sorry.

You people are Kooky

Maybe I'm missing something, but there seems to be a lot of pointless whining occuring here. Suddenly LL is an oppressive government regime because they created a new forum group for discussing virtual politics? Yeah, God damn them. Seriously, that's about the most absurd thing I've ever read on here. I'm not sure why this is so much worse than posting political discussion in any other forum, personally I think as much attention as it gets it deserves it's own category as much as anything else. This may not be as an important a topic to YOU as it is other people, but that doesn't mean it's not worth having a forum for. Just think about all the people who don't script, or don't build. They probably don't give a damn about the scripting and building forums either, but does that mean they should be abolished too?

If you don't like or don't agree with players forming their own governments in SL, then skip this topic. Having it's own forum certainly makes that easier. As far as I'm concerned, if a player or group of players owns a whole sim, or even part a sim, and wants to set up a psuedo-government on their land, who cares? It's their land, and they're entitled to do that with it as much as they are anything else. Nobody's forcing you to visit it or participate.

Thanks, Einsman, for a clearly stated constructive post relevant to the subject of this forum.

supose I wanted a BDSM/Gor Main forum? the prople involved in that do build, script and add to SL. Do you think for a moment that LL would do that? Yet another special interest group gets its on forum. And you consider this not a reason to be upset?

I agree with your stand, Einsman. I will never recognize anything other than TOS either. That doesn't mean we can't have a dedicated forum to discuss (not enact) government of various forms.

I would categorize BDSM as a slightly smaller 'bucket' along with Vamp/Goth, Furrie, Anime, etc. These are all sub groups within our society. Government is a larger bucket similar to Economy, Land, Scripting, Building, etc.

But, if you wan't a BDSM forum, I'll support you in that.. whips, chains and all.

sooo, it depends on one's bucket? hehehe I consider the SL governments activists a smaller bucket still.

Since SL does have a economy, the economy forum should be here. SL has land so the same reasoning for it being here. SL has scripting same as above. SL has building also same as above. SL has no player ran government, so why is it here in the main forum? Its a small plinter group of people wanting to discuss it, for whatever reaon. SL offers group forums for discussions like this. Until SL has as player ran government this forum doesnt belong here.

if you don't want the topic of govenment to proliferate, don't talk about it.

on the other hand, why stop other people from talking about.

isn't lobbying to limit other people's options a political activity?

Thats about as productive as this statement! WOohooo!! We're making progress already!

I dont want to stop anyone from giving their own opinions, I do however object this this forum being given the guise of a player government in SL. I will continue to say this is a special interest group and belongs in gropu forums. If and when there is a player government in SL them it needs a main forum, not until then.
You have no idea how much this upsets me. I dont pay anyone but LL for SL and they are capable of controling it, not some players.

Well, that was just my thinking. There are no formal governments, as you've stated, but there are a few loose player run associations that do have guidelines (aka laws). I've also noticed more and more of these associations springing up and there seems to be some support for more of them in the form of zoned sims.

is that what's happening?

ll is allowed to allow what they allow. if they allow resident participation in government, then what?

I will answer this as I did in another post in this forum......... I no longer will post in this forum.

I don't think they should move a person's thread without their consent. I would much have preferred that this thread be deleted than moved against my will. Or if deleting my own thread at my own request raises the spectre of totalitarianism in peoples minds, move it to off off topic or stick it in the archives. At the very least one could be given such a choice.

Someone made some comment about the the possibilty of their being a private conflict between Ulrika and me. I would like to make clear that their is no personal or private matter sort of conflict between Ulrika and me. We have scarcely spoken a word inworld and have yet to even have a conflict on the forums.

I have no way to know to know exactly what decision making process occured to create this form but I strongly suspect that Ulrika contacted a Linden employee and had the forum created within a matter of hours from the initial request to the appearance of the forum.

The group forums allow for the same words to be exchanged as these more publlc forums.

Having a forum created here does not enable Ulrika to say or hear anything she couldn't say one link further away.

Group forums were setup for Groups. Yes, anyone can contribute, but they are still for specific groups, and not necessarily for topics. This is a topic.

obey the lindens.

That's a corporatist oligarchy for you.

I disagree.

What disturbs me is that you were in the process of creating a group forum for the discussion of government in SL, despite being an opponent of its very discussion and existence. The goal was to prevent legitimizing the topic through its inclusion in the SL forum hierarchy. More insidious is that the discussion would be moderated and controlled by you, the very person who opposed its discussion. It reminded me of tactics used to segregate races in the south, where those in power would create and control a second set of subordinate public and government facilities.

If you had simply staged a protest that would have been acceptable. Instead you engaged in directed action with the goal of suppressing free speech (through the control and moderation of a forum whose topic you are opposed to) and controlling its visibility within SL (by segregating the discussion to a location you feel is subordinate to its current location). What you engaged in is oppression.

To summarize, I am in direct personal conflict with those who stifle, segregate, and oppress -- namely, you.

~Ulrika~

I was indeed trying a simple minded trick, attempting form a Group Forum for the discussion of Government in SL in order to keep the Ulrika Zugzwang Pro-Statism Coercive Collectivism Eat The Rich Forum from appearing at the same level as building and scripting and the others. It was indeed a deliberate attempt to do something sneaky and underhanded. I was trying to engage in politics. I did a bad job of it because I am not a politician. I was suprised you didn't seem to understand the point right off the bat.

You have stooped to trying to create an connection in people's minds between me and racism. This is an excellent example of what someone does when they can't find enough bad things to say about someone they oppose, just toss in some random bad stuff. Creating a group forum for the discussion of government in SL bears very little resemblance to the efforts of pro-slavery collectivists to use the power of the State to suppress individual rights. Your comparison is senseless.

The charge of me suppressing free speech by creating a group forum is so silly.
Providing a place for people to discuss politics in which the exprssion of anarchist views is not treated with insults and derision is hardly an attempt to stifle free speech. You want a place where you get what you want to say in as public a place as possible free from dissent. You got it. You shouldn't be mad, you should glad. You won, I lost. You got just what you wanted to the T just by asking. whereas I couldn't even get an answer to a simple question about group moderation.

I was not trying to create a forum that I would have have moderation powers over, not that I think that would be a bad thing in terms of producing a well moderated forum. Actually it seems to me that such a situation would produce avery well moderated forum. I think I would do an excellent job of moderating a forum on government in SL, or for that matter, any topic I am am capable of understanding. (I could not moderate a fourm on linear algebra, for example.) It would just be too much work for me, I work for a living and am old enough to be wearing out a bit. I would be an excellent forum moderator because I can grasp the difference between personal attack and intellectual disagreement. I would delete posts that used inappropriate language , ad hominem attacks, etc. and send them back to the writer for rewriting in a fashion that made their point in a manner that would keep the discussion focused on the matter at hand rather than turning into an insult match. Actually I would want even more power than that for my type of moderation, rather than editing posts after they appear in public, my desired method of moderation would allow me to see the message before it appears. Instead of having editing powers I would only have rejection and suggestion power. The writer would have to make their point without using foul language, engaging in any form of ad hominem attack or straw man argurments, and they would to run a spell checker and grammar checker on their posts. I would offer suggestions on grammar to the best of my abilities. Isn't that sort of what the editors at peer reviewed journals do?

Be that as it may, I was not trying to create a sham discussion group. I was trying to create a real group for the discussion of government in SL that would appear with the other group forums, but I wanted the Lindens to moderate the forum.

I made an appeal in the Linden Hotline to see if they could make an exception to the Group Moderator rule and have the moderation for the Group Forum be done by the same Linden employee whe moderates the regular forums.

My question is still unanswered at the time of writing this response.

Since I , as someone put it, "suck at greasing palms" no Linden will take the time to answer the questions I post in the Hotline the first time I ask them, I have to put reminders up and get snotty before I get responses.

What makes me really aggravated about this whole deal is that I think that you and a number of other people have something worthwhile to say about alternate methods of arranging affairs in this virual world, something beyond the "absolute control up to the limits of your property line, zero control beyond" which is what presently exists to a large degree, but you don't seem to be saying it. You mention in some thread in this forum that you have managed to say more worthwhile stuff in this forum in a few days that in a great while in the general forums. Could you please provide links to the worthwhile threads in a response and let's see if the thread can be diverted into a discussion of what you have to say about the role of government in Second Life. Please?

And Ulrika, I was not saying that you have no reason at all to be angry with me, but your reasons don't stem from some "private" matter, what I did was quite public and easily interpretable by most people, I suspect. What I meant about there being no "private" matter is that there is no secret past conflict between us fueling this forum conflict between us. At least nothing I can remember since I stopped drinking. I have no way to know what I did in the past here when I was smashed to the gills all the time. But I digress.

I still don't call this having a conflict with Ulrika. I'm glad, because I don't want to.

Time for work.