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Why we don't need a bill of rights

Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
09-20-2005 14:41
From: Tren Neva
Would you please give an example of what freedom SL is holding back from you? It would make my day if someone would just give me a simple example instead of saying how resticted we are.


How about the freedom to make contracts without fear of being ripped off? How about the freedom to sell textures without someone else turning around and selling them?

The freedom to enjoy yourself without having some griefer harrass you, all the time, not most of the time.

The freedom to dispute abuse reports. The freedom to build in a sandbox without having to sit on something.

I'm sure there are others.

Most of these things haven't really affected me, but my faith in the abuse report system, for instance, is less than 7 on a scale of 10.

Anyway, hope that answered some of your questions :)
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http://churchofluxe.com/Luster :o
Taco Rubio
also quite creepy
Join date: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 3,349
09-20-2005 14:46
From: Lo Jacobs
The freedom to enjoy yourself without having some griefer harrass you, all the time, not most of the time.


Sniff - so no really meant no?
Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
09-20-2005 15:00
From: Taco Rubio
Sniff - so no really meant no?


Yes, you pervert.
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http://churchofluxe.com/Luster :o
Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-20-2005 15:33
Fear the truth of my sig. Against it, all arguments fail. KNEEL BEFORE ZOD! (grin)
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Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
Jake Reitveld
Emperor of Second Life
Join date: 9 Mar 2005
Posts: 2,690
09-20-2005 15:37
Its ok Taco, we know when we aren't wanted. Lets go have forum sex with 'roo over in Off topic.
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ALCHEMY -clothes for men.

Lebeda 208,209
Snowcrash Hoffman
Digital mind virus
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 282
09-20-2005 15:55
From: Aimee Weber
You could be omniscient and omnipotent and still hunger for freedom! :D .


Hey Aimee, are you saying God wants more freedom too? :) I wouldn't be surprised though, if God is sick of the whiny humans, how liberating it may be to get rid of them all!?
Aimee Weber
The one on the right
Join date: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,286
09-20-2005 16:06
From: Snowcrash Hoffman
Hey Aimee, are you saying God wants more freedom too? :) I wouldn't be surprised though, if God is sick of the whiny humans, how liberating it may be to get rid of them all!?


SHHHH!!


*looks up nervously*

:(
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Marcus Moreau
frand
Join date: 25 Dec 2004
Posts: 602
09-21-2005 06:39
From: Icon Serpentine
Of course this is all hypothetical and highly improbably.

We don't even have a concrete definition of what rights we're talking about here.

A large platform of my argument is that there are no rights. There are Terms, Conditions, Clauses, and Standards.

You are not privelaged to be in SL. You pay for access to it.

You are hardly a citizen. You're a participant.

That's how I see it.


I will have to say amen to this. We are users of a system, not citizens of a country. What do I know - I'm just a mere user/landowner.
Jesrad Seraph
Nonsense
Join date: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 1,463
09-21-2005 06:49
From: Lo Jacobs
How about the freedom to make contracts without fear of being ripped off? How about the freedom to sell textures without someone else turning around and selling them?

The freedom to enjoy yourself without having some griefer harrass you, all the time, not most of the time. The freedom to build in a sandbox without having to sit on something.

I think these call for features / technicalities, not policies. Like a revised permissiosn system and a STATUS_BLOCK_PUSHES flag for avatars and objects.

From: Lo Jacobs
The freedom to dispute abuse reports.

You have that already. Call LL or have your lawyer do it on your behalf. SecondLife does not exist in a vacuum.
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Either Man can enjoy universal freedom, or Man cannot. If it is possible then everyone can act freely if they don't stop anyone else from doing same. If it is not possible, then conflict will arise anyway so punch those that try to stop you. In conclusion the only strategy that wins in all cases is that of doing what you want against all adversity, as long as you respect that right in others.
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
09-21-2005 07:57
From: Marcus Moreau
We are users of a system, not citizens of a country.... I'm just a mere user/landowner.


We were laughing about this one all morning - an instant-classic contradiction in terms that says it all. :D
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Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
09-21-2005 11:16
From: Seth Kanahoe
We were laughing about this one all morning - an instant-classic contradiction in terms that says it all. :D


How is it so funny?

Maybe his analogy isn't effective, but I understood what he was getting at:

We're users of a system.

Like any user on any network system -- be it a shell account, a MUD/MOO, an SG subscriber, or an SL resident.

How is that funny?
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If you are awesome!
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-21-2005 11:27
From: Icon Serpentine
How is that funny?
You have become the classical anti-intellectual lobbyist. :D

I imagine you're the kind of person who's responsible for calling for intelligent design being taught as an opposing theory because you just haven't had someone convince you that the science behind evolution makes sense.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Icon Serpentine
punk in drublic
Join date: 13 Nov 2003
Posts: 858
09-21-2005 11:45
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
You have become the classical anti-intellectual lobbyist. :D

I imagine you're the kind of person who's responsible for calling for intelligent design being taught as an opposing theory because you just haven't had someone convince you that the science behind evolution makes sense.

~Ulrika~


Thank you for the deep analysis of my character.

I tire of your claim to some position as a superior intellectual philanthropist.

Your ability to jump to conclusions and make assumptions of personal character are coming to a point where I might just have to put you on ignore and discontinue our conversations.

Had you approached me on a level playing field, we might have actually had a productive dialectic and come to some beneficial conclusions. However, your ad-hominem responses are becoming personally insulting and are detrimental to the civility required for proper discussion.

You may find yourself clever, but your lack respect for me is insulting and shameful. I don't believe I have been harmed or slighted in any way by you at this time, but should you choose an attempt to do so, I may just follow up with a report to the moderators. I wouldn't put it past you either, so this is me asking you not to go there.

I'd appreciate it if we could just stick to the topics at hand.
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If you are awesome!
Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
09-21-2005 11:48
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
You have become the classical anti-intellectual lobbyist. :D

I imagine you're the kind of person who's responsible for calling for intelligent design being taught as an opposing theory because you just haven't had someone convince you that the science behind evolution makes sense.

~Ulrika~


Glad to have an example of intellectual discourse, towards which I might one day aspire.
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Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-21-2005 12:00
From: Icon Serpentine
You may find yourself clever, but your lack respect for me is insulting and shameful.
I showed you quite a bit of respect when I spent an hour crafting a clear example of how a bill of rights would be beneficial in another thread. You dismissed the entire thing without a whit of analysis.

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Ulrika Zugzwang
Magnanimous in Victory
Join date: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 6,382
09-21-2005 12:04
From: Selador Cellardoor
Glad to have an example of intellectual discourse, towards which I might one day aspire.
It is an observation. I believe that the threads that Icon has been spawning recently, which oppose a bill of rights and mock the position of those who support it, is a classic anti-intellectual lobbying technique. If you can't argue with them, make fun of them.

If Icon cannot discuss rationally his issues than what recourse do I have but to recognize that he's an irrational force which seeks to oppose a progressive change?

~Ulrika~
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Chik-chik-chika-ahh
Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
09-21-2005 14:36
Icon strikes me as completely rational and indeed relatively moderate in his responses.
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Surreal

Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004

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Cienna Samiam
Bah.
Join date: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,316
09-21-2005 15:00
From: Ulrika Zugzwang
I showed you quite a bit of respect when I spent an hour crafting a clear example of how a bill of rights would be beneficial in another thread. You dismissed the entire thing without a whit of analysis.

~Ulrika~


How something might be beneficial is irrelevent to whether or not it is applicable or legitimate in the context in which it is presented.

As I said elsewhere, people who live in the ivory tower often find the views breathtaking... usually due to oxygen deprivation.... lofty heights and all.
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Just remember, they only care about you when you're buying sims.
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
09-22-2005 17:15
From: Icon Serpentine
How is it so funny?

Maybe his analogy isn't effective, but I understood what he was getting at:

We're users of a system.

Like any user on any network system -- be it a shell account, a MUD/MOO, an SG subscriber, or an SL resident.

How is that funny?


He mixes a principle qualification for political participation in the real world - land ownership - with a principle qualification for participation in the virtual world - usership. And does it unintentionally.

It's funny because it's an irony - a paradoxical illustration of the contradictory character of rights, privileges, ownership, and usership in Second Life - and an indication that the issues are not so simple as many people on both sides think.

And finally, it's funny because I say it is. And, of course, you are free to agree or disagree with me.

May you always have that freedom.
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