SL's average IQ decreasing?

I don't care whether people who join SL are smart or not. They can be as dumb as a box of rocks and as needy as a three-year-old child and I will gladly share company with them -

IF

They are polite and courteous.

I know plenty of "less than average IQ" who are pleasant to be around, courteous, and with whom I can have fascinating conversations and interactions - those conversations aren't going to be about how I can go about generating Goedel indices for arbitrary philsophical systems, but they are pleasant and productive nonetheless.

I think people often confuse "rude" with "dumb" because there are many people who are so self-absorbed that they have never learned to relate to others, much less gotten an education or taken an interest in the finer or more technical aspects of Second Life / First Life. Being rude and selfish cuts off avenues for self-improvement, contacts, opportunities and lessens the chances of others helping one down the line.

Which is not to say that smart people are universally polite and courteous. I certainly am not - I try to limit my sting to people who have demonstrated that they're comfortable in being rude to me first. I think most people who exhibit intelligence, do so as well.

Yabba Dabba Doo!!

I mean, I have an above average IQ! I just save it for special occasions (I'm deadly serious BTW).

Well from a customer service point of view...

READ THE INSTRUCTIONS FIRST!

I don't agree with this, but I can't even spell IQ so that doesn't say much.

Did I mention I also know of many highly educated people who have as much intelligence as a box of rocks? I can write on paper the collected works of Einstein, but that paper's never going to be able to think. One of my greatest concerns is that I want to formalise what the hallmarks of actual intelligence are - how one can recognise that someone is really thinking - but that I can only go so far as to tell if they're emptily parroting some information or blindly applying a rote process.

You can't tell if an entity is actually thinking. Look up the philosophical term "zombie".

Probably.
I've noticed a lot of people who should wear a helmet all the time....

I can presume that someone thinks after ruling out the various hallmarks of rote learning/regurgitation that I am aware of or that are possible. Which reduces the problem to "Does this person look like a zombie to me?" which reduces "evidence of thinking" to "correct artifacts of information processing outside my experience". I doubt, therefore I think - I think, therefore I am - and it is while having conversations with others wherein they conceive of and communicate to me an artifact of information processing that I know is correct and was previously outside both our experiences that I can then know that the other person thinks.

This is for a simple and solipsistic-exclusive value of "know", wherein the universe and the other entity are not pulling an elaborate trick on me by hiding the full extent of their knowledge/experience. The solipsistic conjecture is a categorical sleight-of-hand.

You can presume that, but it's not, I would say, justified; you wouldn't know the difference were an entity's responses properly pre-defined. (I'm not sure where solipsism comes in here, it's not necessary for the point....)

Solipsism is the conjecture that all other entities in one's conciousness and experiences are illusions of one's own mind / the universe / utlimate reality or fragmented parts of one's own self. The p-zombie problem is an orthogonal transformation of the solipsistic conjecture and both are refuted by the fact that they commit an error of scope in their formation which leads to the fallacy of /petitio principii/. In other words, the mere fact that one can conceive of solipsism refutes solipsism's premise. Solpsism is unfalsifiable but is malformed and therefore invalid. It has always been interesting to me because supposedly one cannot persuade someone to abandon solipsism but they can work it out for themselves from first principles.

Not hardly.

So I see you all have met my army of minions that have infiltrated Second Life and will soon squeeze the life out of its very existence. All you intellects who are posting here, the line for my Perfect People is over there --------->

Kilroy,
Second Life World Dominator

I am really, though. Honest.

how have you been measuring average intelligence? do you have any graphs to support your premise?

Yeah, I know what solipsism is, but the concept of p-zombies is not reducible to solipsism. One does not need to be a solipsist to conceive of p-zombies; they can exist in a universe of independent conscious entities. (Not that there are no objections to the idea of course, and not, for that matter, that I count p-zombies as being not conscious, but they don't, by definition, process information themselves.)

I would have thought it was a commonplace Latin phrase rather than a smartarse one, but there you go.

Please note that the OP was not making any value judgements, but was merely asking if there was a perceived lowering of IQ.

When Second Life was new, the kind of people who were attracted to it tended to be creative and technologically savvy. Now it has become more widely known we are getting an influx of gameplayers. I think a drop in average IQ was inevitable.

Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is perhaps the subject for another debate.

do you expect all your employee's to behave as they do in your workplace on Forums for a video game they play?

Generalizations and prejudice. The bane of society, yet such a basic and natural human response to those things and beings which differ from us and which we inevitably and subconsciously fear, an instinct in many ways driven by pride in ourselves and those like us. Sadly, it is this intrinsic quality of human intellect that will forever bar the world...real world or inworld...from enjoying a truly egalitarian society wherein all humanity is seen as equal.

The United States of America was founded upon the principle that "all men are ... equal" (I purposely omitted the "created" because I don't even want to get a side thread started on creation versus evolution). Yet if one looks at American history, the theory had never really been put to practice. Whether it is the role of women in society, the subjugation of an entire race to slavery, the attempted eradication of native peoples, the second-class citizenship accorded to Irish, Southern European, and Chinese immigrants in the 19th century (and to those of Hispanic descent today), America has poorly failed in its attempt at a grand experiment. We still have a nobility in America, we just don't call them that. As a result, we never developed as a concept "noblesse oblige". Whether or not all men are equal is not what is to be debated. Cruel reality dictates to us that class exists, it always has existed, and always will exist.

The Bolshevik revolution and resultant Communist regime in the former Soviet Union is another case in point. While the party bosses and elite enjoyed many good things, the ignorant masses remained where they were...underpriveleged and underprovided. It was inevitable that that system would fail, given human nature.

And so it pours into Second Life. Those poor misguided souls, the unverifiable newbies specifically, are allowed to run about in chaos and confusion. We sit back in our ivory towers sipping tea and complaining. Perhaps even a few of us said, when LL cut off stipends to the ignorant masses. "Let them eat cake." We need to face the difficult truth, the ONLY solution to the unverifiable newbie problem is not to sit back and do nothing. Yes, there is nothing wrong with secluding our homes, properties, and businesses safely on private islands and continents such as Caledon (long live His Grace, Lord Shang! ... hehehe...had to through that in there for you, Des). In fact I encourage it myself, looking for people who have the grace and class to help our dynamic little SL country grow and prosper. Nevertheless, we DO have a noblesse oblige to the poor, tired, abused, huddled masses. We can search among, looking for those who have potential and hope...those...yes even from the really poor and uneducated in real life, who nevertheless possess courtesy, intellect, charm, and grace. We can rescue these from what would otherwise be miserable fates as tortured and mistreated lackies and slaves and toys to the less scrupulous of the SL Elite. We won't reach everyone, we can't help everyone. And yes, it's a grim reality that we will have to live in "gated communities". It would be nice if we could have a truly egalitarian world, but, alas, it will never happen.

SO ... instead sitting drinking our Earl Grey and complaining about the plebes and arguing about who is smarter than who, and who can speak the Classical Languages, and who has degrees in what (if I wanted to brag, I could, but what's the point, there will always be somebody out there who speaks more languages than I, has more degrees than I, and has more IQ points than I), let us find ways to safeguard our communities from those who cannot be helped, and in the meanwhile care for and guide those who can, rescuing as many as we can from the melting pot of mediocrity, so that they too can lead productive and enjoyable SL lives.

Be well, dear friends.

okay for those that think i value highly the IQ measurement, i just used the term IQ as a simplification of the feeling i have in SL. I am in SL since 2 years now, some will say its a lot, but some others are probably much older than me.

Since i try to do customer support the best i can i am more and more confronted to peoples that:
A. don't bother to read manuals
B. can't read a manual
C. can't apply dumbly a simple process step by step
D. express themselve in a totally unreadable engrish dialect (unfortunately i hadn't the chance to study the english dialects other than the shakespearian one)
E. do not read what is written in bold letters in front of them
F. offer suggestions to a problem when they are all but qualified to pronounce on said problem
G. all of the above

of course, i also get precise bug reports and explanations of "what is wrong" , but its becoming rare now.

If some peoples where reading what comments i keep on them in the "my notes" field of their profile, at least i know who toasted my patience threshold.

as a previous posyter said, we are supposed to be equal but , well it seems some have it and some other really don't.

well for this example, the few unverified that contacted me regarding my land restrictions have :

A. insulted me for being an arse that block her land, yet list it in the find places
B. felt like opressed peasants

it seems the problem come from me and not from them apparently.
they don't even read the popup that say them theyr account level is too low -_-nthey think i hate theyr guts personally

i think i deviate of the subject, sorry

Yes, it is sad....way too many of the newbies are rude, crude, crass, boorish, and otherwise villeinous in behaviour. And perhaps one reason they feel like oppressed peasants is because the vast majority of them behave in such a manner as warrants being treated such. As I mentioned earlier, we NEED our "gated communities". Almost invariably, when I for some reason HAVE to visit the mainland (shudders), I make the statement, "God, I hate the mainland".

We should NOT feel that we are in the wrong when we protect our assetts. whether it is to flee to some private island and pay a benevolent dictator such as Mr. Shang to provide for us a safe haven, or to put up bans, limit access, and buy security equipment. There is nothing wrong with that, and everything RIGHT with that.

My complaint is not defending ourselves against the griefers, hoodlums, and otherwise undesirables. We should NOT have to feel guilty about protecting oursleves and that which is ours. My contention is that there ARE good newbies out there with unverifiable accounts, and we as the landed gentry of SL need to take it upon ourselves to take such under our wings. That has been one of my practices since almost the beginning, when I had increased my landholdings to about 1024 sqm on the mainland. I befriended the less fortunate or blessed, took them under my wing, provided housing for them (often out of my own pocket), provided jobs for them, etc. I can think of one person right now who I consider a dear friend of my SL family, who came to my SL brother homeless and penniless. We took him in, gave him a home, gave him a job, and now he is one of Caledon Tamrannoch's distinguished landowners, and a brilliant builder and craftsman.

It won't hurt for us to find such people, give them meaningful employment, careful direction, and rejoice as we see them blossom and grow into SL's future leaders. It will give us a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment. It is the fulfillment of the Golden Rule: treat others the way you wish to be treated. Whether you are Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Bhuddist, Muslim, Wiccan, or Secular/Atheistic Humanist, it is not a bad way to live. Of course, sad to say, for every good unverifiable we locate, there are probably hundreds who are bad. But that should not stop us from trying to help those who have potential.

Myself, I don't blame you for limiting your land's access. When I lived on the mainland, we kept over 7000 sqm of it with limited access (our private manse), but left another 4000 sqm open to the public (shoppes, etc.). And we posted our land in Find too. The griefers and general lawlessness of the mainland are an altogether unacceptable fact of SL mainland life, and we need to protect ourselves. But we should never become so obsessed with self-defense that we become Isolationist. Utlimately, that leads to stagnation of Intellect, Progress, and Liberty...for ourselves, and Sl as a whole.

Al people - with low or high or middle or what so ever can al be rude... angry, sweet, lovely and more.. no difference...



/Tina

Yes people can still be educated and have a high iq and come off as stupid to certain people. Its opinion as to wether someone is educated or has a high IQ or not. IQ tests for starters are nothing more then alot of common sense questions for the most part anyway. Your going to run into people in SL that you may find stupid but thats because the social aspects of SL spread a bit further then they do in real life and you meet alot more people as opposed to just associating with certain people based on looks or what have you. I wont call the people coming in stupid. I think alot of you forget that you were once new to and newbies have it alot tougher then alot of you did when you joined.

SL's iq isnt going down your just running into people that dont fit into your mind set of what intelligence or iq or whatever we want to call it here is to you. IQ really proves nothing someone of a high IQ could tend to act in a fashion un becoming. I also find it silly that they give the test to you and tag you with that being your IQ for life on record. People's intelligence and knowledge base grow over time and their actions can lead to them seeming more intelligent. I'll not cast the stone against others as being stupid unless they first cast a stone at me.

did you really read my second/third post?

P-zombies, being indistinguishable to the observer from independent sentient entities, are equivalent to independent sentient entities for the purposes of the observer - Two universes of discourse in which there are, in one, independent sentient entities but no p-zombies and in the other some independent sentient entities and some p-zombies, and all other values are the same - are indistinguishable and therefore equivalent - as the value of some p-zombies approaches the set of all apparently-sentient-entities-minus-the-observer, the problem becomes orthogonal to the solipsistic conjecture.

That's the problem with p-zombies. They are indistinguishable from independent sentient entities except for the ephemeral and unknowable status of "conscious vs p-zombie". So you don't get to operate on that bit.