tier donations versus tier leverage

... That's just spite -- but there's never any shortage of that here is there?

Great number crunching Wu. I don't own a ton of land but this is valuable info for project possibilities that require alot of space.

So, I generally never believe numbers, particularly if they aren't accompanied by some text that explains the assumptions going in, the sources of the data, and the bias built into the forumula.

But that is just my view

jauani is essentially 'warring' against all group land, which is somewhat understandable given as how he has a vested interest in subletting out islands made to order now.

So yeah, the numbers are quite jaded and unrealistic

thats not how *REAL* groups manage land on the mainland, and i should know, i manage the land for 3 of them

Yes, Chris, you hit upon it exactly, and I'm kicking myself for not seeing that initially either, because I was fixated, too, on the model of the 8-person all-equal hippie commune that will fit the hippie group tools we have now, which distribute everything exactly equally. But if the hippies would just nominate one soul brother to buy the tier at the best possible deal level, i.e. $195, then he can resell to them at a discount for exactly what he got, i.e. $24.75 now instead of $40.

Jim, this thread starts back in the SL Polysci forum with the question: "Why don't people donate tier to manage sims?" It gets buried in polysci, but it was put there because I viewed it originally as a kind of organizational/polysci question -- why can't people just get along and pool resources to get the discount and the boons of cooperation?

Jauani then came and analyzed it in terms of economic advantage, and cooked the numbers to portray the worst-case scenario for Island Nation, and even put the worst possible spin on the polysci feature by calling "Tier Nation" (my concept) to be run by "Despot" but Island Nation (where the rules are more harsh! where the profits, i.e. extraction, is greater!) to be run by the more neutral "landlord" or "grid commune" to be run by "landlord" though we all know that communes can be run by people who make stuff like Jim Jones punch.

Now, why did he do that? Well, for one, he seems to want to go into the private island dealing business. I'm not sure he is actually IN that business. He announced he was retiring from land barony, he sold a lot of his land (I bought some of it!) and he then tried to tier down (I bought even more of it!). I think he wanted to be out of the market during the glut caused by the New Continent and Anshe's deeded private sims hitting at the same time (my, that was a bit of expert planning, but, whatever...).

That land glut made some midbie barons crash out and dump their holdings or liquidate for a song. It made others hang on for a rough ride. My own sense is that the rentals business improved somewhat merely because more people came in the game at this time (the whole reason for the New Continent thingie was because the Lindens saw lots of new numbers coming in). But by and large, the land market seems flatter for all kinds of reasons, the land glut, the performance and log-in issues, summer, etc.

Anshe's islands are the Linden's greatest competition for the New Continent, but the Lindens caving to the no-telehub crowd means lots of land sits out there unpurchased and even unlived in when bought. After the initial exoticism bubble, it crashed quite a bit and Anshe had to slash prices as did others. Jauani wasn't in the market during this period except for maybe renting and keeping some trading tier open with some prime mature waterfront which still sells even at 9.5 even on the mainland (lots competing with it out in the NC tho).

For various reasons to protect my group from attack and seizure, I asked Jauani and Gwyn and others to come in as additional officers. I trust them not to sell the land out from under me, which is what you have to do with officers. But both of them, once they saw my business, seemed to be amazed that I had more land than they thought, and began to think about my tier-donation program (not involving very many people) and I guess began to think it posed some kind of challenge to them and their programs? And both of them immediately repaired to the forums to bash me and call me a dictator, because evidently they don't like to see any independent force, even a small one, arise in the game that they'd like to rule at their end of it. So they'll campaign against alternatives that involve management of sims but not through socialism, either through the Nberg set and it's angry campaigns against "exploiters of the people" (which include the Lindens, P.S.) or through the angry campaigns against "hobbyists" and "despots" who just run sims at a bare margin -- and then undercut the "real players" like Jauani making a good profit off the land market.

Except that I think the real story is that neither Jauani or even Anshe Chung really makes much money off this land market made out of pixels because it's a utopian dream that just hasn't really become established as even a virtual reality yet.

Right at the time Ulrika began posting her ads for Nberg, the new private sim, the new low-cost subscriptions, etc. I had my ads up for one M and one PG community where you could donate tier to get the same amount of land, rent, or rent-to-buy. This last bit -- rent-to-buy is attractive because no island can offer that -- you get to own your very own land. My projects are more like homesteading (I call it that) meaning I don't build nice roads on top of the Lindens' roads or hold your hand with lots of activities pre-terraforming, you pretty much are on your own. So I don't expect my communities to sell like a house a fire with those themes but they are an experiment.

A lot of people in this game like to be left alone, though. They don't want to join a thing that is going to have committees and town meetings and government sessions all the time, and that's what is happening on the private sims. They also want customer service to happen a little faster. And I'm not the only one doing this. Obviously, Taber, Slate, Lusk, Alviso, and other communities are doing exactly the same thing, making a theme, sharing tier, picking building or game or whatever projects to do, and even opening up rentals to the public. It's my own feeling that model has more to offer than the private islands but what's good is that we now have a variety of plans to chose from.

In the usual SL fashion, however, this is about the Soviet anecdote: if my neighbour has a cow, get the state to take away his cow, and kill it. Don't have me strive to get a cow, too. Anybody can get a cow in this game, they don't have to get it by forcing the state to kill other people's cows. That's just spite -- but there's never any shortage of that here is there?

actually the numbers are very honest. i have no intention of subletting islands. i'm not into the service industry stuff. how fun is that?

if anyone refutes my numbers, i welcome you to post your own for discussion. otherwise your words are hollow. please contribute your numbers.

no you just gave the best case of one and the worst case of the other, which is unrealistic, our numbers are we have 112000 sqm of land all as part of one cohesive group build, and i pay for a sim and a half...somethin that couldn't happen if we had an island

The Grid commune can pay $195 just like the Island commune. That $320 figure is very misleading and not practical. So why does Jauani continue to leave a distorted example with this comparison? If he doesnt change it, I'll just post a new thread with the REAL figures anyone with half a brain would use.

right! and as i have posted elsewhere (and in this thread), that is what i call tier leveraging and works on the grid as well. the exception on the grid is you need the rare condition that friends trust each other implicitely with their share of the land that they paid for. on island land there is just that one added advantage that no trust in others over RL equity in land is required.

The problem most of us had with your comparison is that you didnt mention the trust factor at all in the original post. You presented your 'findings' as pure hard math/facts and I dont recall it alluding to a cheaper alternative based on trust. And guess what, people took the bait.

yes i apologize again for that. it had been mentioned in other discussions on the board and i should have been diligent enough to make that clarification right from the start.

I think there are several things that could make life easier. Make founders of groups immune from recall votes or whatever they are called. Make an option that only the group founder could sell land. Make another position in a group, like a VP that would become the new 'founder' if the original quits SL. Make it so land editing can only be done by the ower or officers in group land.

I could go on. But until more things are changed to make life easier on the main grid, dont pull the 10% out from beneath people.

you are already making a huge savings on the regressive tier by leveraging everybodies share of land under one account. 10% on top of that seems to me like double dipping. don't get me wrong, i do it to, and am still doing it, and will continue to do so as long as it's available. but isn't it unfair double dipping unfair to people who can not a> use it and b> people who can not benefite from it to the extent as we can on our 1.5 sim tiers?

Now that we've settled that could we shift this discussion to a less contentious question? I'd love to see the emerging private continents get main grid benefits. I'd love to see private island continents join up with the main grid so we could fly over a sim boundary between the two. Private island continents are exciting, and that's where I'm going to get my land, and most people I know are thinking the same way. Soon there will be enough of us to start asking for main grid access.