Governor Linden's Land - No Build, No Edit/Protected Land

A couple of issues here....

I was under the impression that "protected" land was just that...protected from building or editing. Also possibly as a buffer zone between adjacent PG sims and Mature sims.

That no longer seems to be the case land adjacent to Derwent (Ambleside?). All the trees are gone and building is now taking place. Its not that the Lindens aren't great neighbors, I'm sure that they are. But this land, lots of it, was bought BECAUSE it was adjacent to protected land.

And how reasonable is it to put a PG sim be right next to a mature sim with no buffer zone????

What is anyone's thoughts on "protected" land status? Is it only temporary, reserved for subsequent Linden use?

Disappointed in Derwent

A lot of people have had much more experience of this than I, but when I bought my First Land I thought the protected land in front of it was just that, protected. But it turns out protected land seems to really mean "to be auctioned off later," as far as I can tell.

It's a misnomer the Lindens should correct.

Protected land is, by its very nature, transient - but far less so than resident-owned land.

If you wish to build next to "protected land" in the future, do some research first. Particularly:

- How long has it been there?
- Is the land parcelled out in a way that appears to be ready for sale?
- Does the land contain infrastructure that's probably not going to change?
- Does the land contain any "purple" borders? You may check this by turning on landlines in preferences.
- Does this land provide some form of service? (eg. ANWR is along the route to the new continet)
- Has this land appeared in any recent announcements?

That's your best bet.

I'm beginning to think that it would just be easier on both LL and us if there were no protected land, at all, ever. I mean, jesus, Nova is an intelligent woman. She has better things to do than to fly around the world deleting abandoned vehicles and setting auto-return.

It certainly is. Which is why the label "protected" is misleading in the absence of documentation that explains what it means.

And let's remember that only a small portion of SL's population reads the forums. Forum posts do not constitute documentation, in my book.

That's a fair assessment. I'm just addressing one resident's concerns. But since the Lindens do read the forums, it's an argument to be made for documentation.

What would you suggest? Add these entries to a visible FAQ? Wiki them?

I agree. And I've learned to keep a weather eye on all Linden land, even that marked "protected" because I've woken up the next morning in some sims to find that what was "protected" was on the auction.

Sometimes it is easy to mix up Linden land if you don't have the colors turned on in view/property owners. You see all this land belonging to Governor Linden, but he's auctioning off a lot of it, or he has seized it and will make it be first land or auctioned later.

I think the status "protected" should mean that it stays protected. The Lindens should not double back on that. After all, they make a big production of saying that players can never ask to have protected Linden land sold to them, or changed to provide water access, etc. So to establish that norm and have it stay honest, they need to abide by it themselves.

It would be unfair, for example, if some people living in a sim for months asked to have Linden land sold, were told because it was protected it couldn't be sold, but then wake up 2 months later to find the Lindens put it up on first land or auction without giving them a chance to buy it.

In fact, releasing land to the public or putting it to first or auction land is the only fair way to deal with this issue. But then that is all the more reason why Linden land marked "protected" has to stay that way.

It's not as if the Lindens can't make some more and sell it. And if they find they are holding too much tierable land, then they need to put less Linden protected land in future parcels.

Actually, the land "to be auctioned off later" is clearly marked with plot numbers so even though it is marked no build, no edit it clearly is waiting to be put up for auction after the newbies have a shot at first land on a new sim.

This land is marked "protected" or Governor Linden owned, with no build/edit.

Just a thought. I think some of this "protected" land is necessary as a buffer between Mature and PG sims. Also this land is necessary as frontage land alongside roadways. Its also a good practice to preserve some open green spaces!!!!

thanks for responding

Well, I think this kind of thing ought to be spelled out in a slightly more comprehensive version of the land FAQ. Which is apparently out of date anyway, according to some other thread around here.

I don't mind having land around that might be auctioned off at some point. I just think it needs a better label than "protected." A lot of people just coming into SL don't stop to read all the forums and wikis and FAQs but just want to dive right in. They deserve more accurate labeling of what's out there.

What about "unreleased land"? That tells you what it is, and warns you that at some point in the future it might change. Something like that.

No one has really suggested this, but I think asking new residents to do a whole lot of research just to figure out what's actually going on with a pretty basic but misleadingly labeled aspect of the economy is something that in the end works against the stated business goals of LL, which are to get people in here. (We haven't hit a million residents yet, last I checked.) If the land were labeled more intuitively and/or the FAQ were a bit better, this would help, I think.

If LL wants the residents to create the world, they have to give them the tools to do it. Now, if they're also asking the residents to create those tools, it's a slightly different, and much greyer, matter.

It sounds to me like Philip has a fairly clear vision in his head of what this user-created world entails, but I don't feel like that vision has filtered down very far in terms of how it impacts small design questions like this, in many cases. In the real world, "protected" land is usually land that will *never* be built on. How land that's shortly coming up for auction got labeled "protected" is beyond me. Someone didn't give it much thought. I think an improvement in little things like this could really improve the SL experience for people new to the place, if not for everyone.

These are very important issues, and thank you for bringing them up. Let me give you all a little background on how this all started.

One of the projects I'm working on is an inworld Linden Office space. The main idea is to have a centralized public inworld area where Lindens and Residents can meet and collaborate. To give residents a chance to see Lindens in an informal setting and to increase the approachability of Lindens in a public way. We want to support the efforts of Live Helpers, Liasons, and all Lindens regarding interactions with residents, and to create a central place where we can share content and information with residents. It will also be a place where Lindens can meet and work together in a public location. The area being developed is in the Waterhead/Ambleside/Kirkby region.

There are two components to this project. The first is a "themed" build being worked on by Michael Linden. The theme is an Italian/Adriadic coastal town, with lots of gardens, open meetings spaces, and private-type meeting areas. The second is the "Village" area. A place where any Linden can grab up to 2048 sq. m of land and be as creative as they like with no particular theme. The only stipulation is that everyone creates *collaborative* spaces...areas where each Linden can meet and interact with residents.

We've had a lot of Lindens jump at this opportunity to create their own "Village" space, focusing on creating meeting places for interactions with residents. And we've been using Land that was previously designated "Owner: Governor Linden."

On the issue of land designated "Protected"...that should always indicate land that is NEVER going to be sold. Protected Land is land that the Lindens are holding on to, for the purpose of either leaving it undeveloped (trees, mountains) or for the creation of public roadways, bridges, waterways, or other Linden content like telehubs.

Theoretically, land that is listed in the About box as...

Name: Protected Land
Description: Not for Sale

...is land that will never be sold. But I'm hearing in this thread that that's not the case? Are there cases where you all have seen land listed as that eventually go to auction?

Now, land that has the "Name" and "Description" *blank*...that's land that will potentially be going to auction. That's the land that we've been using in the Waterhead/Ambleside/Kirkby area for the Linden Office/Village project.

However, flying around the region, I've been noticing land that *should* be listed explicity as Protected Land/Not for Sale as having those fields *blank*. Land that has roads and bridges on it. I suspect this is an oversight on our part, and I'll be checking up on this.

I apologize for any confusion. My goal with the Linden Office/Village is to give the Lindens a chance to be more integrated into the resident community, fostering more collaboration in more creative and personalized settings. I'm very happy that the issues of zoning and potential "buffers" between Mature and PG land are being brought up. Previously, these issues have been somewhat "removed" from the daily experiences of Lindens inworld. These are things that residents have been wrestling with, but are things that us Lindens may sometimes forget about since we are not usually dealing with them firsthand. One goal of the Linden Office/Village is to give us Lindens an opportunity to be part of the inworld community, dealing with these same issues ourselves.

Please keep sharing your thoughts on all this. Should we have a clearer definition of Protected Land? Is Protected Land sometimes going to auction, confusing residents and making a mess of property values? Is the issue of "buffers" between PG and Mature land something we need to start looking at (up to now, we have not had such buffers)? What kind of "zoning" tools would make the most sense to implement and be most helpful?

As this Linden Office/VIllage project continues, I hope to have more discussions about all this. Please don't hesitate to find me inworld to discuss these issues. Given the timliness of these subjects, I'd like to start holding inworld meetings about these community topics at my meeting space in the Linden Village (Ambleside 48, 96). Keep an eye on the events listings this week!

Take care,
-Pathfinder

Open space is good space, whether it's parks, plazas, open water or whatever. The use of open space to buffer PG and Mature zones is a good thought, but it shouldn't be limited to that use. I'd like to see at least one significant public space in every zone. Break up the sprawl, provide nuclei for development apart from telehubs, cut the impact of visual pollution, and give us some elbow room!

Name: Protected Land
Description: Not for Sale

...is land that will never be sold. But I'm hearing in this thread that that's not the case? Are there cases where you all have seen land listed as that eventually go to auction?


Thanks Pathfinder. As far as I know the land marked as Protected or Governor Linden's land with no plot number has never been sold, but it was given over to the LindenVillage project even though it was marked protected.


The land in Ambleside bordering Derwent was marked as protected

Hey! I wondered what those buildings were for. Glad they're not just decorative. : )

The question of where Linden Protected green space is located within a sim is crucial to many residents' land purchase decisions. It can make or break neighborhood harmony. One suggestion by LF was that players get the ability to configure the Linden Protected plots on a sim before residents move in. I too feel that I could put this capability to good use in configuring a more livable sim. The idea is particularly appropriate for themed sims.

There's a big difference in my book between "protected" and Governor Linden land. For example, recycled land that is intended to be First Land is usually owned by the Gov, but not marked "protected".

But I agree with Random that land that says "protected" should always be.

Hiya pathfinder and all non lindens!

Good to hear about the linden project, its about time!

As far as protected land going up for sale, from my experience this hasn't happened much if ever since I have been playing. I am not aware of every instance obviously, but I am involved in land trade. Any land properly designated as linden land "protected", has remained that way.

Something that might be confusing or have mislead players, could be the way land come on auction, and is claimed by players.

Sims come on the grid before they are subdivided and offered on the auction, durring this gap the land will seem to be protected and will not show a player owner or purple. (when you selecte "land owners" under view, or have property lines on (indicating available on auction)) After the land has been properly divided and added to the auction it will become purple till the winning auction come to claim this land. This process can take up to seven days after the auction.

when purchasing land because of its proximity to "protected land" make sure you heed Jeffrey Gomez's warning and double check that the land is not for auction, and not so new that is hasnt had a chance to be processed yet.

woot, Linden City!

Hi Pathfinder!

and now back to our topic:

(a) I have personally seen land marked "protected" later get sold off, I believe at auction, and I've heard from others who have seen this too.

(b) I definitely don't think someone who's buying their First Land and may not have been in-world very long should have to go check the auction page to determine what's going on around them, especially when it would be very easy to just label land clearly as to what's going to happen to it, i.e., "Will not be sold and will remain Linden property" or "May be sold one day, so neighbor beware." I think that's probably something that's incredibly simple to implement, given the willingness to make a decision and stick to it.

And if the Lindens don't want to lock themselves into preserving land that's never going to be sold, that's fine too, just label it all as liable for sale. But in terms of making the SL experience as smooth as possible for new users (and everyone) I really think a simple in-world indication of whether the land is may be sold or not is hardly too much to ask.

EDIT: Part of the reason I feel strongly about things like this is that I love the idea of SL as a seamless in-world experience. The less occasions people have to go out of world for information, the better, as far as I'm concerned. Anything that makes me go to another window reduces my experience of SL as a unified virtual world.

My First Land plot was adjacent to a 2048-square-meter chunk of waterfront that was labeled Protected Land back in October 2004, but it went up for auction a couple weeks after I'd moved in. When I contacted LL about it, they responded that it was mistakenly labeled "Protected Land"; apparently, that was the default label given to a parcel by the LL tools that generate a new sim, and it was an honest mistake that land always intended for auction had not had its name changed from "Protected Land" to something else.

It was a bit of a panic at the time for me; I'd purchased my First Land specifically because it bordered a large chunk of protected waterfront. Fortunately I'd always intended to tier up and buy more land in the sim. I just wasn't expecting to do it in my first month as a resident of SL.

Thank you Pathfinder! I do hope that this project works out
I was just writing in my blog wondering out loud so to speak, about some of the causes of misunderstandings, and features being implemented and/or changed that don't seem to make sense.
My theory had been just what you are trying to remedy here: that we "live" in SL a whole lot more on average than LL employees, and thus we have two different types of experiences of what all is going on in world.

This is great, and again, I DO hope that it brings us more together and helps to streamline the growing process of SL

THANKS!

Very cool project Pathfinder. I think it's a great idea, and I look forward to seeing some of the Lindens express themselves creatively in world.

You get a real sense of the different personalities when you look at Linden village. There are docks and swimming pools and vehicles and wonderful technical builds on the far shore. Oh, and trains!